Are you aware that there is no proof of any young woman less than sixteen years old getting married in Texas? (Not sure if 17 isn't the cut off). Are you aware that the 13 year old who had a child referred to in court is now a woman in her mid 20s and the child would have been conceived in a different jurisdiction?
If there is no proof of any 16-year old being married, then the girls under the age of 17 who are pregnant/have children would be considered victims of child abuse. Is that correct? I believe the correct terminology would be child sexual abuse.
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The American Psychiatric Association states that "children cannot consent to sexual activity with adults", and condemns any such action: "An adult who engages in sexual activity with a child is performing a criminal and immoral act which never can be considered normal or socially acceptable behavior."
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Originally Posted by Newman
Isn't it possible that with the arrest of a couple of people for underage marriage; such a practice (if it were so) was winding down and that is why CPS has yet to show us any thirteen, fourteen and fifteen year old brides?
My question is if it turns out that there was only one sixteen year old bride, do you believe Texas should have removed all the children? What if there were five?
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They took custody of 463 children on the belief that the sect's practice of underage and polygamous spiritual marriages endangered the children.
Just a little while ago it was reported that of the 31 of 53 girls who were either pregnant or had children, 2 of them had 2 children, and 2 of them had 3 children. I don't think we're dealing with a case of it just being ONE child, or 5, that is affected by all this. (Of course that's dependant upon whether these are factual news reports.)
And yes, I still believe that under the circumstances that existed when CPS first went to the ranch, that they had no other choice but to remove all the children. It doesn't do us any good to look at facts NOW that might alter the course of events THAT DAY. They did what they had to do given the evidence and facts they found AT THAT TIME.
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'Some folk don't understand that the middle "F" in AFF is the most important ingredient!' -noeticknight
Just a little while ago it was reported that of the 31 of 53 girls who were either pregnant or had children, 2 of them had 2 children, and 2 of them had 3 children. I don't think we're dealing with a case of it just being ONE child, or 5, that is affected by all this. (Of course that's dependant upon whether these are factual news reports.)
And yes, I still believe that under the circumstances that existed when CPS first went to the ranch, that they had no other choice but to remove all the children. It doesn't do us any good to look at facts NOW that might alter the course of events THAT DAY. They did what they had to do given the evidence and facts they found AT THAT TIME.
The Mrs- Ok I want to understand your thoughts and feelings better. So let's say that the reports are 100% accurate and there are 31 pregnant or minor mothers out of 53.... (which I don't believe but for the sake of discussion)
1. Does it matter to you if none of the women feel victimized and they are happy with their lives as they have been living this way for six generations?
2. Does the end justify the means? Was is OK if the phone call hoax was a set up to gain entry to the ranch?
3. Do you think Texas handled it right when they first got to the ranch about 9pm five days after the phone call? Do you think it was Ok to get the children out of their beds at 3am first to question them even as they saw themselves surrounded by an army of people with weapons?
4. Do you think that the response to underage marriage in a state with the highest rate of teenage pregnancies should have been the removal of more than 200 children under five years old? Does it matter that this is never the response of Texas authorities to other identifiable groups where teen age births are rampant and adult fathers the norm?
5. Have you done any research on Texas foster care? Do you know that a news station (in the not so distant past) reported that 2/3 of Texas foster children were reported to be on psychotrophic drugs including those under the age of 5?
6. Did you know that the national outcome for foster children is that more than 70% of the children end up in jail, or homeless, etc.?
7. Do you know what amount of sexual abuse of YOUNG CHILDREN goes on in Texas foster care based on their own admissions?
8. Are these facts meaningless to you because there is a greater good somewhere? If so, what? If not, why such a hard stance against children caught in the chaos?
The Mrs- Ok I want to understand your thoughts and feelings better. So let's say that the reports are 100% accurate and there are 31 pregnant or minor mothers out of 53.... (which I don't believe but for the sake of discussion)
1. Does it matter to you if none of the women feel victimized and they are happy with their lives as they have been living this way for six generations?
None? If that were the case, why are there Carolyn Jessops, Flora Jessops, and Kathy Jo Nicholsons to name a few. http://helpthechildbrides.com/stories.htm The problem with cultic practices is, you won't believe you're in a cult.
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Originally Posted by Newman
2. Does the end justify the means? Was is OK if the phone call hoax was a set up to gain entry to the ranch?
3. Do you think Texas handled it right when they first got to the ranch about 9pm five days after the phone call? Do you think it was Ok to get the children out of their beds at 3am first to question them even as they saw themselves surrounded by an army of people with weapons?
Again, I believe that CPS made the right choice with what info they had at the time. A lot of variables and unknowns. They had no guarantees this was not a destructive cult.
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Originally Posted by Newman
4. Do you think that the response to underage marriage in a state with the highest rate of teenage pregnancies should have been the removal of more than 200 children under five years old? Does it matter that this is never the response of Texas authorities to other identifiable groups where teen age births are rampant and adult fathers the norm?
Just because the state has the highest teen pregnancy rate doesn't make it legal. Or right. (Are you trying to justify bad behavior by bad behavior?) Are minors with babies left to themselves when discovered? Or are they remanded to a guardian/parent?
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Originally Posted by Newman
5. Have you done any research on Texas foster care? Do you know that a news station (in the not so distant past) reported that 2/3 of Texas foster children were reported to be on psychotrophic drugs including those under the age of 5?
6. Did you know that the national outcome for foster children is that more than 70% of the children end up in jail, or homeless, etc.?
7. Do you know what amount of sexual abuse of YOUNG CHILDREN goes on in Texas foster care based on their own admissions?
I just saw Dr. Phil talking about this in a video clip. My first thoughts: why would you associate the two groups and assume a similar outcome? You have to first realize that the children that are placed in foster care have come from a rough life, and are most likely not going to change that direction already started before they arrived in foster care.
And secondly, these FLDS children were not set up in individual foster homes. They were placed in GROUP HOMES. The state made efforts to keep siblings together. See Court Document: Placement of Children here They are also making efforts to provide the style of living they are accustomed to while on the ranch; food, clothes, education, religious practices. (It was even reported that one of the homes repainted a red wall so as not to offend the children, and that red items were removed.)
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Originally Posted by Newman
8. Are these facts meaningless to you because there is a greater good somewhere? If so, what? If not, why such a hard stance against children caught in the chaos?
Which outweighs which?
__________________
'Some folk don't understand that the middle "F" in AFF is the most important ingredient!' -noeticknight
According to the Bishop's Records there are 5 girls listed as 'wife' at the ages of 16.
Pg. 4 ~Elizabeth Luverne(sp) Jessop, age 16, married to LeRoy J. Steed, age 40, 8 wives
Pg. 9 ~Rachel Keate Allred, age 16, married to Lehi B. Allred, age 28, 3 wives
Pg. 11 ~Rebecca Keate Dutson, age 16, married to Keith William Dutson, Jr., age 22, only wife
Pg. 12 ~ Sarah Cathleen Jessop Nielsen, age 16, married to Luke Seth Nielsen, age 19, only wife
Pg. 13 ~Suzanne Jessop Jeffs, age 16, married to Abram Harker Jeffs, age 35, 5 wives
~Only 2 of those 'marriages' are legal. (Unless, of course, these husbands have an actual Marriage Certificate with that girl, and that girl only.)
~3 others were listed as wives with the ages of 17. One was the wife of one man, with an 8-month old son. Guess she was 16 when she was married?
~It only lists 12 girls between the ages of 14-17.
Of course these families may not even live at the YFZ Ranch. Or have anything to do with the families there, but this is a document that was confiscated from the YFZ Ranch.
Would love to see the family trees!
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'Some folk don't understand that the middle "F" in AFF is the most important ingredient!' -noeticknight
None? If that were the case, why are there Carolyn Jessops, Flora Jessops, and Kathy Jo Nicholsons to name a few. http://helpthechildbrides.com/stories.htm The problem with cultic practices is, you won't believe you're in a cult.
Again, I believe that CPS made the right choice with what info they had at the time. A lot of variables and unknowns. They had no guarantees this was not a destructive cult.
Just because the state has the highest teen pregnancy rate doesn't make it legal. Or right. (Are you trying to justify bad behavior by bad behavior?) Are minors with babies left to themselves when discovered? Or are they remanded to a guardian/parent?
I just saw Dr. Phil talking about this in a video clip. My first thoughts: why would you associate the two groups and assume a similar outcome? You have to first realize that the children that are placed in foster care have come from a rough life, and are most likely not going to change that direction already started before they arrived in foster care.
And secondly, these FLDS children were not set up in individual foster homes. They were placed in GROUP HOMES. The state made efforts to keep siblings together. See Court Document: Placement of Children here They are also making efforts to provide the style of living they are accustomed to while on the ranch; food, clothes, education, religious practices. (It was even reported that one of the homes repainted a red wall so as not to offend the children, and that red items were removed.)
Which outweighs which?
The Mrs -
Different Accounts of Walking Away
How hard was it for Jessup to walk away with her 8 kids? She only had to get them in the van to go to the dentist. But she is making alot of money selling books now and embellishing the stories as she goes along.
I had posted a different account by another polygamist wife survivor earlier on this thread. She mostly felt positive about her sheltered youth and walked away as an adult. She thought that 95% of the people that left felt like she did but the vocal 5% paint a story she didn't experience.
There are plenty of horror stories around for many denominations. But that doesn't mean the experience is the same for all members of that group.
Better or Worse off Compared to What?
I have no experiences with cults and may not be as horrified as I should by 16year olds getting married. Given the morality today; I am not convinced that these young women are worse off then 16 year olds having sex with men that aren't committed to them.
The Foster Care System
Having said what I don't know much about, I would point out that I do have first hand experience with the foster care system and broken lives. There are too many problems to enumerate and I am not anonymous. (I would also add that some of the best people in the world are foster parents and I don't want to take anything from them).
Suffice is to say when broken children come in contact with other children; the results can be tragic all the way around and contribute to the dire statistics that Dr. Phil is quoting. Consequently, even children going in to foster care that weren't abused may in fact be abused by the system that was designed to help them.
How long will Texas continue to cater to this group by keeping them together at the tune of $17,000 per day? Probably only so long as the spot light shines on them.
Attachment Disorder
Also, we need to consider the plight of the very young children abruptly removed from their mother's care. Psychologists know they are at risk for developing attachment disorders; never ever able to really love as an adult; especially so if they continue to be moved about.
Saving Face
As far as I am concerned; Texas did not meet their legal obligation in removing all the children against their own expert witness opinion without individual due process. In my opinion, the judge was way out of line for not allowing other visiting judges to hear individual cases.
I do not believe they acted in the best interest of the young children but let their prejudice run ahead of them in conducting the raid and needed to save face. Given that judges are elected in Texas, I am doubtful that an appeal to another Texas Court would prevail.
Different Perspectives
And so it appears that we see this through different eyes. Most importantly, I hope you are right and the children will be ok after all is said and done.
Different Accounts of Walking Away
How hard was it for Jessup to walk away with her 8 kids? She only had to get them in the van to go to the dentist. But she is making alot of money selling books now and embellishing the stories as she goes along.
She didn't walk away going to a dentist appointment, it was in the middle of the night and she barley made it out. One of the sister wives gave her away. This sister wife is at the ranch in Texas right now. How do you know that she is embellishing the stories as she goes along?
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Originally Posted by Newman
I had posted a different account by another polygamist wife survivor earlier on this thread. She mostly felt positive about her sheltered youth and walked away as an adult. She thought that 95% of the people that left felt like she did but the vocal 5% paint a story she didn't experience.
I tried to find this other account and wasn't able to find any info except for the statement she made with no name to identify this person. How do you know this was a real person. At least Carolyn and Flora Jessup have put their identities on the line for people to ridicule them and they have gone through a lot of that.
Flora Jessup has helped over 86 young women escape. She doesn't do it because it is fun for her, she does it because she knows what these girls are going through. She was locked in a room for three years after the cps gave her back to her parents. She left because of the sexual demands her father was making. A place that was supposed to help gave her back.
Irene Spencer is another women who wasn't part of the same group and could of walked away, but didn't because she thought it was the will of God for her to stay. After thirteen children (the first one passing away) and the death of her husband she finally got out. The name of her book is Shattered Dreams. She was around when the 1953 raid happened and watched it from a distant window. Her father was imprisoned for 2 years in 1944. Before she married her mother tried to talk her out of it and wouldn't give consent. She got married in secret anyway when she was sixteen.
When these plural marriages take place they happen in secret so that no one can say they have seen under age marriages taking place. That way if they are ever asked, like what is going on in Texas, they can say no.
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Originally Posted by Newman
There are plenty of horror stories around for many denominations. But that doesn't mean the experience is the same for all members of that group.
Most denominations do not have one leader that you believe is the spokes man for God and whatever he says is Truth. Also they don't live behind locked gates in communities. In these types of groups they give up their own beliefs for the greater good of the group. You will notice they are all the same, they look alike with very little distinctions.
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Originally Posted by Newman
Better or Worse off Compared to What? I have no experiences with cults and may not be as horrified as I should by 16year olds getting married.
I do. We attended one not knowing it was a cult. We were told by other's that they were. I have heard that the church I grew up in was a cult. The UPC is labeled a cult because they believe in baptism in Jesus name. So did this group we were joining.
We only stayed a year. They could only keep things from us for so long. They wanted to brainwash us so when we did find out all this weird stuff we would stay anyway. We didn't live behind a locked fence and it was bad enough.
They would train the babysitters to go through the homes of the parents of the children that they babysat for looking for anything that could be used against them. I watched the berate adults in front of their children taking away any respect the children had for their parents, undermining the parent's authority. It was alright for a man to spank his wife if she got out of line.
After leaving we have been involved with others that have left and watching the destruction that the families go through is horrible. A man who doesn't want to be controlled has lost his business, his wife and children (one who is a newborn). His wife was counseled to divorce him and remarry. Most who leave their spouses that stay are counseled to divorce and remarry. This usually happens within 6 months to a year. They do not want singles to stay single it is easier to control with them being married. The also run to the elders when they have the silliest fights among husband and wife.
The children do not no how to interact socially with society. They have been told that they are the true church and if people don't believe the way they do they are wicked and evil and not to be associated with.
I have seen so much oppression with women like this who believe this is the life God wants them to lead and that it is okay for a man to spank them if they are out of line. Insanity is what I call it. Forgive me for wanting the children to get out of it when they are young.
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Originally Posted by Newman
The Foster Care System
Having said what I don't know much about, I would point out that I do have first hand experience with the foster care system and broken lives. There are too many problems to enumerate and I am not anonymous. (I would also add that some of the best people in the world are foster parents and I don't want to take anything from them).
This is also a very real factor, you don't have a win/win situation here.
According to this article the state is going to start immunizing these children whether the parents want them to or not. The state's spokesman has stated that, "We're the legal parents of the children and we would like for them to be immunized."
I don't believe parental rights have been terminated yet. The state has custody, but are not their legal parents.
The UPC is labeled a cult because they believe in baptism in Jesus name.
Just wanted to address this and say this is NOT the reason why the UPC is considered a cult. In fact, it's not even among all the reasons why the UPC is considered such.
I know people who are no longer part of the UPC because they believe they are a cult, but still themselves believe in the baptism in Jesus name.
Just thought I'd clarify.
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I've gone and done it now! I'm on Facebook!!!
Just wanted to address this and say this is NOT the reason why the UPC is considered a cult. In fact, it's not even among all the reasons why the UPC is considered such.
I know people who are no longer part of the UPC because they believe they are a cult, but still themselves believe in the baptism in Jesus name.
Just thought I'd clarify.
Actually that is the main reason. There are many more. If you look it up the different reasons cults are considered cults, one of them is that they are teaching another Jesus other than the orthodox view. Therefore any oneness movement would be considered a cult because we believe in baptism in one, and not in the trinity. This is according to what I learned in my class on cults in college.
(Of course that's dependant upon whether these are factual news reports.) 
'Some folk don't understand that the middle "F" in AFF is the most important ingredient!' -noeticknight
Hybrid Mode
