Hello, this is my first time ever posting anything. I was at the conference in Branson. I believe the fellowship goes by WPF not WWPF. We've recently pulled out of the UPC, my home Church is in Buchanan MI. I was looking something up online and came across this Apostolic Friends Fellowship and it looked interesting. Then I saw Elder Steve Epley leaves post here so I decided to register. I highly respect this elder. The meeting in Branson MO. was very balanced. I guess by most peoples standards I'm considered far to the right on about all issues. Its very easy to dwell on negatives.. and I know I can find fault with anything or anyone if I'm looking for it. The Executive council of the WPF is top notch. I question anyones integrity or intelligence who would criticize these Elders. Unless of course you've done more for the Kingdom then they have. Lord willing I'll be at the confernce in '09. And hopefully I can make it to the AMC conference in Nashville also.
Bro Rutledge, I'm glad you decided to join the forum. But let me say that my criticism and the criticism of many people around the country and in this forum is in how this was done.... I guess there is a fair amount of head scratching on why it was done (the inconsistency of a stance that embraces the internet but shuns television to the extent that it is worth leaving the org...but that's another story).
Either way the massive letter writing campaign to the ministers of the organization using the UPC mailing list is unethical no matter who does it. If it were done to any of these individual pastors on the local level where some of their leaders left and used the church mailing list to inform the members unbeknowst to the pastor, I would imagine they would see the ethical issues there.
Everyone is free to join whatever organization they want. I have issue when in leaving, you cast aspersions on the organization as if we are turning back on the "preferred Apostolic way". Especially when the basis for this is something as perplexing as the embracing of the internet and the absolute horror at the thought of advertising on television. I would be a bit more impressed if they just went Amish with it.
__________________
There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, Chuck Norris lives in Houston.
Either the United States will destroy ignorance, or ignorance will destroy the United States. – W.E.B. DuBois
Bro Rutledge, I'm glad you decided to join the forum. But let me say that my criticism and the criticism of many people around the country and in this forum is in how this was done.... I guess there is a fair amount of head scratching on why it was done (the inconsistency of a stance that embraces the internet but shuns television to the extent that it is worth leaving the org...but that's another story).
Either way the massive letter writing campaign to the ministers of the organization using the UPC mailing list is unethical no matter who does it. If it were done to any of these individual pastors on the local level where some of their leaders left and used the church mailing list to inform the members unbeknowst to the pastor, I would imagine they would see the ethical issues there.
Everyone is free to join whatever organization they want. I have issue when in leaving, you cast aspersions on the organization as if we are turning back on the "preferred Apostolic way". Especially when the basis for this is something as perplexing as the embracing of the internet and the absolute horror at the thought of advertising on television. I would be a bit more impressed if they just went Amish with it.
Hello tstew,
I believe the men on the Executive Council are true Men of God. I do understand where your coming from. When the UPC was formed and or merged or when any other oneness organization has beed started I'm not sure if it could be done without upsetting people. I do not believe the WPF was started all because of the tv issue. The tv issue was just like the straw (brick) that broke the camels back. The WPF is just holding the standard where it has been (trying to go by the bilble and the upc manual) for years. I think we have to keep television out of the Church and its been proven that you cannot do that and use it for advertising and broadcasting. As far as going amish.. I'd rather by associated with the amish than the charismatics.
God Bless.
TR
Hello tstew,
I believe the men on the Executive Council are true Men of God. I do understand where your coming from. When the UPC was formed and or merged or when any other oneness organization has beed started I'm not sure if it could be done without upsetting people. I do not believe the WPF was started all because of the tv issue. The tv issue was just like the straw (brick) that broke the camels back. The WPF is just holding the standard where it has been (trying to go by the bilble and the upc manual) for years. I think we have to keep television out of the Church and its been proven that you cannot do that and use it for advertising and broadcasting. As far as going amish.. I'd rather by associated with the amish than the charismatics.
God Bless.
TR
Dear Elder Rutledge.
Are you saying that the men left in the UPCI are not true men of God? Please tell me this isn't true, for if this is what you are saying then you are in a boat load of trouble in life.
Many churches have used TV as a mode of evangelism and are not Charismatic even before the res #4 vote. I would recommend taking your head out from the sand.
And if this is how you feel about the UPCI and want to lump everyone in this category let me tell you friend then even the Amish wouldn't want to fellowship with you.
Are you saying that the men left in the UPCI are not true men of God? Please tell me this isn't true, for if this is what you are saying then you are in a boat load of trouble in life.
Many churches have used TV as a mode of evangelism and are not Charismatic even before the res #4 vote. I would recommend taking your head out from the sand.
And if this is how you feel about the UPCI and want to lump everyone in this category let me tell you friend then even the Amish wouldn't want to fellowship with you.
Hello Blaylock, I made no reference to ministers who stayed in the UPC. I know God can still work in a United Pentecostal Church. I have friends and minister friends whom I believe to be "right with God" in the UPC.
I don't think my head is in the sand. I percieve you and I are very different in what we've been taught. I have no problem with people belonging to the upc.. I just do not care for the direction they seem to be heading. The most important thing I have is my soul and I will be very careful what I fellowship. Forgive me if I came across harsh or judgemental, that was not my intent. God bless.
TR
Hello Blaylock, I made no reference to ministers who stayed in the UPC. I know God can still work in a United Pentecostal Church. I have friends and minister friends whom I believe to be "right with God" in the UPC.
I don't think my head is in the sand. I percieve you and I are very different in what we've been taught. I have no problem with people belonging to the upc.. I just do not care for the direction they seem to be heading. The most important thing I have is my soul and I will be very careful what I fellowship. Forgive me if I came across harsh or judgemental, that was not my intent. God bless.
TR
Are you saying that the men left in the UPCI are not true men of God? Please tell me this isn't true, for if this is what you are saying then you are in a boat load of trouble in life.
Many churches have used TV as a mode of evangelism and are not Charismatic even before the res #4 vote. I would recommend taking your head out from the sand.
And if this is how you feel about the UPCI and want to lump everyone in this category let me tell you friend then even the Amish wouldn't want to fellowship with you.
Herein lies the problem! Unless you are referring to non-UPCI pastors/churches (I don't think you are) that were using TV prior to the passing of res #4, those pastors/churches which did so were in direct violation of the "manual" they were in covenant to uphold. They could have left and followed their heart in being on TV, that would have been fine. Or they could have worked to change the rule, but when they chose to stay and openly violate the rules, that is blatant rebellion.
With all due respect I think those who have lambasted the WPF men, yet applaud those who openly rebel and violate the very covenant they entered into of their own free will (no one made them join the UPCI) are the ones with their head in the sand. Overlook rebellion..........denigrate those who stand on their convictions.......No Thanks!
Herein lies the problem! Unless you are referring to non-UPCI pastors/churches (I don't think you are) that were using TV prior to the passing of res #4, those pastors/churches which did so were in direct violation of the "manual" they were in covenant to uphold. They could have left and followed their heart in being on TV, that would have been fine. Or they could have worked to change the rule, but when they chose to stay and openly violate the rules, that is blatant rebellion.
With all due respect I think those who have lambasted the WPF men, yet applaud those who openly rebel and violate the very covenant they entered into of their own free will (no one made them join the UPCI) are the ones with their head in the sand. Overlook rebellion..........denigrate those who stand on their convictions.......No Thanks!
Bishop I have gained some respect for you due to your posts and at the very least your consistency. My issue has never really been with their convictions even though I do feel them to be somewhat cloudy due to the stance on the internet and other technology. My problem was with the lack of ethics that led to many people (including immediate family members of mine) who expressed no desire to be included and had no prior relationship with the founders (except their UPC connection), receiving the information as a result of using the UPCI mailing list. Once again if anyone did that in anybody's individual church to establish a "more preferred" church they would certainly be crying foul.
Furthermore, I have been involved with and around many sizable UPC churches in large media markets with the means to advertise on TV and I have never seen it done, so I don't believe it is happening anywhere near the extent you are intimating. If there are a few who have (and I'll grant you that if even without you citing specifics because I've already had my coffee today ...I don't believe you can parallel that to the actions that were central to the birth of an organization by all of the founders and facilitators of said organization.
__________________
There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, Chuck Norris lives in Houston.
Either the United States will destroy ignorance, or ignorance will destroy the United States. – W.E.B. DuBois
Bishop I have gained some respect for you due to your posts and at the very least your consistency. My issue has never really been with their convictions even though I do feel them to be somewhat cloudy due to the stance on the internet and other technology. My problem was with the lack of ethics that led to many people (including immediate family members of mine) who expressed no desire to be included and had no prior relationship with the founders (except their UPC connection), receiving the information as a result of using the UPCI mailing list. Once again if anyone did that in anybody's individual church to establish a "more preferred" church they would certainly be crying foul.
Furthermore, I have been involved with and around many sizable UPC churches in large media markets with the means to advertise on TV and I have never seen it done, so I don't believe it is happening anywhere near the extent you are intimating. If there are a few who have (and I'll grant you that if even without you citing specifics because I've already had my coffee today ...I don't believe you can parallel that to the actions that were central to the birth of an organization by all of the founders and facilitators of said organization.
Thank you for your comments! I have appreciated the spirit in which you have posted, and even though we may not agree on every issue, I do enjoy your input.
I understand your concern about the manner in which the WPF's announcement was broadcast. I am not sure there would have been any good way for them to get the word out (I think their method and motive would have been questioned no matter what) however, I am willing to agree that there may have been a better way.
I have never said that there was widespread TV broadcasting or advertising going on, I simply responded to Blaylock's assertion that "Many churches have used TV as a mode of evangelism and are not Charismatic even before the res #4 vote." I will stand by my sentiment that anyone who did did this was in violation of their covenant with the organization and was being rebellious, dishonest, and lacked integrity. In fact I feel this same way about those that sign the affirmation statement every year and own/watch a TV. They would never accept that kind of blatant disregard from their own members/leaders.
I have often stated, that while I disagree with those who left over the AS back in the 90's, I have great respect for them. At least they were honest and possessed integrity. They refused to sign in agreement for something they could not in clear conscience agree to, and they did not operate outside the manuel in disrespect and rebellion, they simply followed their convictions and left.
I do know that one of the leading men on the committee task to examine the issue leading up to Tampa, when asked why we should change the "law" or rule after all of these years, made the statement, that so many are operating outside of the law/rule that we need to change the law/rule so that they will no longer be violators. (This was quoted to me by the man who asked the question in the meeting, and since I cannot "quote" the answer verbatim I have simply repeated the info.)That is an extremely dangerous ideology. That mindset will lead to the erosion and eventual departure from the truth. IMHO
Thank you for your comments! I have appreciated the spirit in which you have posted, and even though we may not agree on every issue, I do enjoy your input.
I understand your concern about the manner in which the WPF's announcement was broadcast. I am not sure there would have been any good way for them to get the word out (I think their method and motive would have been questioned no matter what) however, I am willing to agree that there may have been a better way.
I have never said that there was widespread TV broadcasting or advertising going on, I simply responded to Blaylock's assertion that "Many churches have used TV as a mode of evangelism and are not Charismatic even before the res #4 vote." I will stand by my sentiment that anyone who did did this was in violation of their covenant with the organization and was being rebellious, dishonest, and lacked integrity. In fact I feel this same way about those that sign the affirmation statement every year and own/watch a TV. They would never accept that kind of blatant disregard from their own members/leaders.
I do know that one of the leading men on the committee task to examine the issue leading up to Tampa, when asked why we should change the "law" or rule after all of these years, made the statement, that so many are operating outside of the law/rule that we need to change the law/rule so that they will no longer be violators. (This was quoted to me by the man who asked the question in the meeting, and since I cannot "quote the answer verbatim I have simply repeated the info.)That is an extremely dangerous ideology. That mindset will lead to the erosion and eventual departure from the truth. IMHO
That one line is I believe sums up the concern that I have about some of what I perceived in some of the actions leading up to Tulsa. I'm not saying that these men are that way, but those actions can very easily be seen that way. These are men that I have heard about my entire life and it was distressing to watch some of the things unfold.
The argument as to "how to get the word out" could be used by everyone leaving a local assembly to start a church in the area. Get the word out by evangelizing and reaching the lost. Not proselytizing and dissemenating info to everyone on the mailing list of an organization.
When it comes to disobeying rules that you have sworn to uphold, I do believe that there are provisions against using the mailing list in this way in the first place. Plus it is very harmful to the kingdom.
As to what your friend heard, I have never heard that as a leading factor in the decision to allow advertising on television. Remember that this was not a vote to install a TV in everyones house. The most consistent commentary I heard was about the inconsistency of a stance that embraces the internet and other very similar technologies that are far more advanced than the typical TV set, while shunning TV advertisements.
__________________
There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, Chuck Norris lives in Houston.
Either the United States will destroy ignorance, or ignorance will destroy the United States. – W.E.B. DuBois
Herein lies the problem! Unless you are referring to non-UPCI pastors/churches (I don't think you are) that were using TV prior to the passing of res #4, those pastors/churches which did so were in direct violation of the "manual" they were in covenant to uphold. They could have left and followed their heart in being on TV, that would have been fine. Or they could have worked to change the rule, but when they chose to stay and openly violate the rules, that is blatant rebellion.
With all due respect I think those who have lambasted the WPF men, yet applaud those who openly rebel and violate the very covenant they entered into of their own free will (no one made them join the UPCI) are the ones with their head in the sand. Overlook rebellion..........denigrate those who stand on their convictions.......No Thanks!
Of course I am referring to non-UPCI Pastors and you knew that.
But this was just your opportunity to bash the UPCI again.
It amazes me that every time someone will bring up a Church that has been using TV for advertisement and programming all the CONS shut up or call them LIBS. But surprise, surprise it is working and they are winning and keeping souls.
People who wont use TV as a tool for evangelism are those who have their heads in the sand.
No one is overlooking rebellion........... constantly judge others ..... degenerate the Apostolic movement with that judgment of whose right and whose wrong .... NO THANKS!!!!!
Re: Have You Been to WWPF Lately?
...I don't believe you can parallel that to the actions that were central to the birth of an organization by all of the founders and facilitators of said organization.
Hybrid Mode
