Grace Verse Legalism

[Steve Epley]

Most folks concept of grace is a disgrace.
What is sin is the first question?
John replies "sin is a transgression of the LAW." 1Jn. 3:4
Paul speaks of the "LAW of life in Christ." Rom. 8:3

There is NO liberty without law. Contrary to the popular opinion on this forum the ministry is NOT a necessary evil.
The Holy Ghost sets men over the flock Acts 20:28, 1Pet. 5:1-4
The ministry is for the perfecting of the saints Eph. 4:11
Saints were commanded to remember Heb.13;7, obey 13:17, salute 13:21 those who had the RULE over them.

Jude and Peter's warnings about those who dispise GOVERNMENT are very strong 2Pet. 2:10-14, Jude 8-13

Most folks discussing LEGALISM and GRACE don't have a clue about either.

[El Predicador]

Originally Posted by steve epley

most folks concept of grace is a disgrace.
What is sin is the first question?
John replies "sin is a transgression of the law." 1jn. 3:4
paul speaks of the "law of life in christ." rom. 8:3

there is no liberty without law. Contrary to the popular opinion on this forum the ministry is not a necessary evil.
The holy ghost sets men over the flock acts 20:28, 1pet. 5:1-4
the ministry is for the perfecting of the saints eph. 4:11
saints were commanded to remember heb.13;7, obey 13:17, salute 13:21 those who had the rule over them.

Jude and peter's warnings about those who dispise government are very strong 2pet. 2:10-14, jude 8-13

most folks discussing legalism and grace don't have a clue about either.

amen brother epley

[Rhoni]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Most folks concept of grace is a disgrace.
What is sin is the first question?
John replies "sin is a transgression of the LAW." 1Jn. 3:4
Paul speaks of the "LAW of life in Christ." Rom. 8:3

There is NO liberty without law. Contrary to the popular opinion on this forum the ministry is NOT a necessary evil.
The Holy Ghost sets men over the flock Acts 20:28, 1Pet. 5:1-4
The ministry is for the perfecting of the saints Eph. 4:11
Saints were commanded to remember Heb.13;7, obey 13:17, salute 13:21 those who had the RULE over them.

Jude and Peter's warnings about those who dispise GOVERNMENT are very strong 2Pet. 2:10-14, Jude 8-13

Most folks discussing LEGALISM and GRACE don't have a clue about either.

Case in point

[Withdrawn]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Most folks concept of grace is a disgrace.
What is sin is the first question?
John replies "sin is a transgression of the LAW." 1Jn. 3:4
Paul speaks of the "LAW of life in Christ." Rom. 8:3

There is NO liberty without law. Contrary to the popular opinion on this forum the ministry is NOT a necessary evil.
The Holy Ghost sets men over the flock Acts 20:28, 1Pet. 5:1-4
The ministry is for the perfecting of the saints Eph. 4:11
Saints were commanded to remember Heb.13;7, obey 13:17, salute 13:21 those who had the RULE over them.

Jude and Peter's warnings about those who dispise GOVERNMENT are very strong 2Pet. 2:10-14, Jude 8-13

Most folks discussing LEGALISM and GRACE don't have a clue about either.

I'll say this as respectfully as I can. It is not my goal to offend.

I think you've made a great point, but perhaps not as you had hoped. We are to submit to the ministry, you are correct. But the ministry is for the perfecting of the saints, not for encumbering the saints with more law. The ministry is to LEAD, not DRIVE. Pastors are NOT the only office of ministry, and they certainly are NOT infallible. And they are NOT given authority to formulate codes and laws, force them on the saints, then call them sinful and rebellious if they don't obey what God has not commanded in the first place.

I respect your position that holiness and modesty require a specific code. I do not respect your assumption that because I don't agree with you that I don't have a clue about legalism or grace. I know many old-time saints that would send this entire generation of apostolics to hell because we don't see things the same way they do. Much like the "hold the fort" comment you made in another thread. It's an extremely arrogant and dangerous attitude to have. You know all the answers. You have all truth. So you'll hold that line no matter what. Unfortunately, you might miss some great revelation along the way.

If you only surround yourself with people with the same ideas and agree with you on everything, you'll never learn anything new. And if you only let a few in that have a different view - the only purpose being so you can show them how dumb they are and how smart you are, you'll never learn anything new and you'll only confirm how right you are in front of all the people in your club. But if you actually listen with an open mind instead of a made-up mind, you might learn that you DON'T have all the answers, you DON'T have a personal monopoly on truth, we're not all going to hell, that we don't hate holiness, that we love modesty and live a life of self-denial and purity despite not being encumbered with a set of rules devised by a group of 20th century men, however well-intentioned they may have been.

[Rhoni]

Originally Posted by jaamez

I'll say this as respectfully as I can. It is not my goal to offend.

I think you've made a great point, but perhaps not as you had hoped. We are to submit to the ministry, you are correct. But the ministry is for the perfecting of the saints, not for encumbering the saints with more law. Pastors are NOT the only office of ministry, and they certainly are NOT infallible. And they are NOT given authority to formulate codes and laws, force them on the saints, then call them sinful and rebellious if they don't obey what God has not commanded in the first place.

I respect your position that holiness and modesty require a specific code. I do not respect your assumption that because I don't agree with you that I don't have a clue about legalism or grace. I know many old-time saints that would send this entire generation of apostolics to hell because we don't see things the same way they do. Much like the "hold the fort" comment you made in another thread. It's an extremely arrogant and dangerous attitude to have. You know all the answers. You have all truth. So you'll hold that line no matter what. Unfortunately, you might miss some great revelation along the way.

If you only surround yourself with people with the same ideas and agree with you on everything, you'll never learn anything new. And if you only let a few in that have a different view - the only purpose being so you can show them how dumb they are and how smart you are, you'll never learn anything new and you'll only confirm how right you are in front of all the people in your club. But if you actually listen with an open mind instead of a made-up mind, you might learn that you DON'T have all the answers, you DON'T have a personal monopoly on truth, we're not all going to hell, that we don't hate holiness, that we love modesty and live a life of self-denial and purity despite not being encumbered with a set of rules devised by a group of 20th century men, however well-intentioned they may have been.

POTD!

[Glenda B]

Amen Brother Epley

[LUKE2447]

Most folks discussing LEGALISM and GRACE don't have a clue about either.[/QUOTE]

Couldn't agree more! The term liberty also is usually a word used without understanding. As liberty is the ability to sin without it being counted against you much in the same way as grace is used. Paul always contrasted Grace with sin and notice "sin" was still sin whether Grace or no grace! hmmm Shall we continue in "sin" that Grace may abound? hmmm How can a person still sin if "one is not under law"?
As usual people don't understand the terms and make Paul contrary to the rest of the Word of God.

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

Most folks discussing LEGALISM and GRACE don't have a clue about either.

Couldn't agree more! The term liberty also is usually a word used without understanding. As liberty is the ability to sin without it being counted against you much in the same way as grace is used. Paul always contrasted Grace with sin and notice "sin" was still sin whether Grace or no grace! hmmm Shall we continue in "sin" that Grace may abound? hmmm How can a person still sin if "one is not under law"?
As usual people don't understand the terms and make Paul contrary to the rest of the Word of God.[/QUOTE]


No one is saying Grace and Liberty are licenses to sin. None of us here have acted that way.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

Couldn't agree more! The term liberty also is usually a word used without understanding. As liberty is the ability to sin without it being counted against you much in the same way as grace is used. Paul always contrasted Grace with sin and notice "sin" was still sin whether Grace or no grace! hmmm Shall we continue in "sin" that Grace may abound? hmmm How can a person still sin if "one is not under law"?
As usual people don't understand the terms and make Paul contrary to the rest of the Word of God.

No one is saying Grace and Liberty are licenses to sin. None of us here have acted that way.

Did not say who, but many do that are on this forum not necessarily this thread. Though they may not say that or "agree" that you should sin the end result is the same that one can do such and still be ok to God.

I heard a pastor who is in the UPC say once. That people should not "flaunt"(expose themselves) there liberty around. Trying to draw lustful attention to themselves least to say. Instead of it simply being called sin his mentality was not that the flesh was being sinful but it was liberty. Many have that same mentality and call that Grace. Which in reality it's false doctrine. THat type of mentality has the you shouldn't do that but if you did it's OK we are under GRACE and your salvation is secure.