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Originally Posted by mfblume
I was not referring to eternal judgment in Heb 6. I just know that some UR folks make the argument that eternal in other places does not mean forever. By the same toke, it cannot mean forever in eternal life, either, then. |
I think you're not grasping the complexity of the biblical languages. Context and subject often define a word. For example consider
Habakkuk 3:6, here we see the same Greek word in the Greek text for "everlasting" used twice; and each usage demands a different meaning....
Habakkuk 3:6
He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: his ways are everlasting.
The mountains are "everlasting" because their creation is outside of the boundaries of the author's knowledge and their destruction is outside of his capabilities. This doesn't mean that the mountains were eternal and would never be destroyed. In fact, the author points out that they were indeed scattered. However, in reference to God himself the term "everlasting" is clearly meaning without beginning or ending.
Sadly we often interpret the very fluid language of the Bible in chip choppy computer fashion that demands in our mind that if a word means one thing in one place it must mean the same thing elsewhere. That's just simply not the case Bro. Blume.
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There is a vast difference between timing of tribulation and beast than whether or not everyone will be saved in the end. Bro Epley can attest to that. 
But actually there is no eternal judgment if everyone winds up saved in the end. Judgment was temporary, not eternal. We must ascertain what the nature of the adjective eternal is in this issue. It may mean eternal effects, but it still would not mean everyone winds up saved. Judgment is a decision. And the adjective eternal refers to the decision made. It cannot be changed. Such and such as are saved and such and such are lost.
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Bro. Blume.... we have to define the term "saved". Both eternal punishment believers and universal reconciliation believers believe that only those who embrace and obey the gospel will be saved. What's at issue is, what are they saved from? The eternal torment believer believes that the saved are saved from never ending torture in Hell. The universal reconciliation believer believes that the saved are saved from God's fearsome and corrective punishment. Both the eternal torment believer and the universal reconciliation believer believe that the unbeliever will be condemned by God and are NOT saved from God's judgment. The difference is the eternal torment believer believes that the lost, or unsaved, will NEVER be reconciled to God in the dateless future; whereas the universal reconciliation believer believes that even those who are not saved from God's judgment will eventually be reconciled to God once their judgment performs the necessary correction for their reconciliation. Upon reconciliation it should be noted....these were NOT saved from God's judgment as the believers were...they are simply reconciled. In addition the unsaved who are eventually reconciled do not rule and reign with Christ....believers rule and reign over them throughout eternity. God's judgment and punishment serves an eternal purpose....it's just not torment, it's correction and restoration of all human beings.
So in short, while universal reconciliation believers believe that all will eventually be reconciled...they understand, as do you, that not all will be SAVED from God's wrath and judgment. So it's a misnomer to say that UR believers believe that "everyone will be saved".
Picture with me a conversation with two souls in the UR idea of Heaven in the dateless future when all have been reconciled. You might ask one soul if they were "saved" and they might answer, "Yes, I was saved. When I died I passed straight into the presence of Jesus." However, another soul might answer, "No, I was not saved. When I died I suffered much punishment before God reconciled me according to his grace found only in Christ Jesus."
So no, UR doesn't teach that everyone will be saved. It teaches that everyone will eventually be reconciled.
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Heb 6 is saying we must agree on those six principles. And UR does not agree with me on eternal judgment. Hence, no fellowship. I think it means we can disagree on other issues outside those six, but those six are musts.
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The UR believer believes that those who are NOT saved will suffer God's judgment and that the effects of that judgment indeed are eternal. So it's impossible to say that the UR believer doesn't believe in eternal judgment. But as you said above...they simply don't agree
with you about the nature and purpose of that eternal judgment.
So, on what grounds do you denounce them as being unworthy of your fellowship?
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