Obey Them that Rule???

Originally Posted by Michlow

I just have one question for you. How do you (chancellor, personally) determine what is the "Real" church and what is the fake church?

The REAL Church is the body of Christ. It is not a man-made organization or denomination or some other such thing. How do I determine what the REAL Church is? I look at what the Bible says it is.

[Michlow]

Originally Posted by Chan

The REAL Church is the body of Christ. It is not a man-made organization or denomination or some other such thing. How do I determine what the REAL Church is? I look at what the Bible says it is.

Right. You make the determination. You decide if your spiritual authority is REAL authority in the REAL church.

Originally Posted by Michlow

Right. You make the determination. You decide if your spiritual authority is REAL authority in the REAL church.

No, GOD already made the determination. God has set up a particular leadership structure in the Church consisting of what is often called the "five-fold" or "four-fold" "ministry" as listed in Ephesians 4:11, i.e. apostles (missionaries - men who go to a place, preach the gospel to the lost, plant the local church made up of the converts, train and install the leadership of that local church, i.e. pastor and elders), prophets (Agabus in the book of Acts, the prophets in Acts 13), evangelists (they go out from the local church and evangelize, they are not apostles and they have no business preaching to believers), pastors (bishops or overseeing elders), and teachers (or, in the four-fold ministry, pastor-teachers, their job is to impart doctrine) and elders. Whether every church was to send out apostles (missionaries) or have prophets and evangelists is not entirely clear but every local church is supposed to have bishops and other elders. This is the authority that GOD has placed in the Church and, thus, is the real authority. We don't get to decide anything.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Chan

No, GOD already made the determination. God has set up a particular leadership structure in the Church consisting of what is often called the "five-fold" or "four-fold" "ministry" as listed in Ephesians 4:11, i.e. apostles (missionaries - men who go to a place, preach the gospel to the lost, plant the local church made up of the converts, train and install the leadership of that local church, i.e. pastor and elders), prophets (Agabus in the book of Acts, the prophets in Acts 13), evangelists (they go out from the local church and evangelize, they are not apostles and they have no business preaching to believers), pastors (bishops or overseeing elders), and teachers (or, in the four-fold ministry, pastor-teachers, their job is to impart doctrine) and elders. Whether every church was to send out apostles (missionaries) or have prophets and evangelists is not entirely clear but every local church is supposed to have bishops and other elders. This is the authority that GOD has placed in the Church and, thus, is the real authority. We don't get to decide anything.

WE decide who the five-fold ministry is and WE decide who we submit to. Mormons could make the same argument and say God told them to wear Mormon underwear.

Originally Posted by ILG

WE decide who the five-fold ministry is and WE decide who we submit to. Mormons could make the same argument and say God told them to wear Mormon underwear.

No, WE don't get to decide. GOD decided. Our job is to obey HIM. It is treason against GOD to assert for ourselves personal sovereignty (such as you are doing in your post). God commands and our job is to obey. Mormons can't make any arguments because Mormons are not of God.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Chan

No, WE don't get to decide. GOD decided. Our job is to obey HIM. It is treason against GOD to assert for ourselves personal sovereignty (such as you are doing in your post). God commands and our job is to obey. Mormons can't make any arguments because Mormons are not of God.

I'm not talking about personal sovereignty. I am talking about God sovereignty. Personal sovereignty also says MY pastor and MY leaders are of God because I said so!

Originally Posted by ILG

I'm not talking about personal sovereignty. I am talking about God sovereignty. Personal sovereignty also says MY pastor and MY leaders are of God because I said so!

Well, actually, you are talking about personal sovereignty simply because you insist on you being the one who gets to decide. IF your pastor and leaders are of God then it is only because God and His word say so.

[Michlow]

Originally Posted by Chan

No, GOD already made the determination. God has set up a particular leadership structure in the Church consisting of what is often called the "five-fold" or "four-fold" "ministry" as listed in Ephesians 4:11, i.e. apostles (missionaries - men who go to a place, preach the gospel to the lost, plant the local church made up of the converts, train and install the leadership of that local church, i.e. pastor and elders), prophets (Agabus in the book of Acts, the prophets in Acts 13), evangelists (they go out from the local church and evangelize, they are not apostles and they have no business preaching to believers), pastors (bishops or overseeing elders), and teachers (or, in the four-fold ministry, pastor-teachers, their job is to impart doctrine) and elders. Whether every church was to send out apostles (missionaries) or have prophets and evangelists is not entirely clear but every local church is supposed to have bishops and other elders. This is the authority that GOD has placed in the Church and, thus, is the real authority. We don't get to decide anything.

Originally Posted by ILG

WE decide who the five-fold ministry is and WE decide who we submit to. Mormons could make the same argument and say God told them to wear Mormon underwear.

Thank you ILG, that was my point. Someone can say "Hey God made me the spiritual leader over all of you", but WE determine whether we agree with that statement or not.

Originally Posted by Michlow

Thank you ILG, that was my point. Someone can say "Hey God made me the spiritual leader over all of you", but WE determine whether we agree with that statement or not.

No, GOD determines whether that man is the spiritual leader. Your job is to go to HIM and ask HIM to show you those whom HE has put over you.

[Michlow]

Originally Posted by Chan

No, GOD determines whether that man is the spiritual leader. Your job is to go to HIM and ask HIM to show you those whom HE has put over you.

Oh, well, he said he would get back to me on that