Apostolic Friends Forum
Tab Menu 1
Go Back   Apostolic Friends Forum > The Fellowship Hall > Fellowship Hall
Facebook

Notices

Fellowship Hall The place to go for Fellowship & Fun!


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-14-2008, 01:24 PM
ILG's Avatar
ILG ILG is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 11,467
Re: What does it really take?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SearchingOut View Post
Please bear with my long post. I would like to get some honest discussion on the topic and if I overlooked an identical post, I'll read that. I was a bit overwhelmed by the number of threads and didn't see what I was looking for.

I've been in church all my life, I've went to a relatively large church for most of my life who had iron standards that were rivaled only by the most conservative of the upci. Our leadership taught us that if you didn't do it our way then you weren't going to make it. We looked down on any churches who didn't believe what we did and spent youth services marvelling at all the churches who had gone "charismatic." The funny thing is that our friends from yesterday suddenly didn't meet our standards anymore so we chased new ones and finally resigned to solitude. We were closer at church than some of our genetic brothers and sisters for the most part and had incredible excitement and spirit. Our pastor was later convicted of sex crimes from being a little too close to some of the sisters, the church fell apart and I moved on.

I had spent most of my life convinced that I wouldn't make it anyways.

I then went to a really small church who again had iron standards. In fact if a friend in the ministry had a higher standard they would pick that up too. There were clothing inspections, other people enjoyed getting to walk out when someone did something that the church didn't believe in like video presentations of missionary events. Again, no socializing with those evil charismatics or the likes thereof (anyone with lower standards).

I still was convinced that I had a slim shot at making it all the way, but hey! gambling is better than not playing at all.

Now I'm going to a church that is an hour from where I live. It has standards that are biblically based only. If its not scriptural either by literal interpretation or at least by an arguable scriptural basis (i.e. pants are mens apparel whether they are labelled womens or not) then its not enforced. For the first time I feel like I really can make it, reaching an equalibrium of holiness and mercy but the church is so busy and intellectual that I've lost the enjoyment of church. My friends are those who can use me and for the most part only as long as they can use me. Then like a duster, I'm put back on the shelf for the next round. I really couldn't care a lot if I didn't go back.

The teaching is second to none and could be documented for theological discussion. I've never known more about scripture and why, but I'm drying up inside. I go to church and really enjoy it, join the masses heading through the door afterwards, do my duties for the church and then its over, back to the week again. I have never felt both so close to God at church and so far away when I'm not.


I guess my state of mind is disillusioned and confused. My question and point of this discussion is this:

In others opinions, what is it all about? Is it about my first location hating those who aren't as good and striving at an ever decreasing goal in the distance? Is it about competing with other churches to see who can have the shiniest book of standards? Is it about knowing so much about scripture that you can argue with the best theologians and look down on those who don't understand?

On the other side of the spectrum, I see those who were also disillusioned with it all and abandoned holiness entirely. Choosing to trust in God's mercy more than His Word. Allowing first one thing and then another until they are no longer distinguishable from the world. It becomes more of a confession of faith and handshake religion where anything goes that would make someone else uncomfortable.

Across the spectrum I see churches who excel in seemingly important areas and fail in others. The question is which is more important? Is it truely possibly to find a church that can reach an equalibrium of both maintaining holiness and biblical education and yet not become so businesslike that people can only be friends if they are in the same organizational unit?

For the first time in my life, I can truely understand why some people abandon the church idea and become spiritual nomads. I dont' think its right, but I can see the reason.


Is there anyone who has been here and back? Anyone who has really considered, more than for fear or comfort, why they are doing what they believe?

Please don't use this for a bashing opportunity. I'm turned off by the accusations and disdain and I'll just move on. The question is if you can help me.

Thanks
SearchingOut,

As someone who was UPC for almost 20 years and pastored with my husband, I will say I appreciate your honest and heartfelt post. We left the UPC over 3 years ago and I say, hey, I dunno. Maybe somebody has some decent insight. You might have to overlook a few superior tones but I, too, am interested in the answers.

ILG
__________________
Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the people doing it. ~Chinese Proverb

When I was young and clever, I wanted to change the world. Now that I am older and wiser, I strive to change myself. ~
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-14-2008, 01:44 PM
scotty's Avatar
scotty scotty is offline
Renewed


 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 5,432
Re: What does it really take?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ILG View Post
SearchingOut,

As someone who was UPC for almost 20 years and pastored with my husband, I will say I appreciate your honest and heartfelt post. We left the UPC over 3 years ago and I say, hey, I dunno. Maybe somebody has some decent insight. You might have to overlook a few superior tones but I, too, am interested in the answers.

ILG
Hmmm, seeing as he has not mentioned the org of his original church, it can only be assumed he is speaking of UPC since they made him jump through hoops of fire and endure clothing inspections in order to be saved.

But your probably right, we have that reputation. However it should be asked so that we may respond properly.

Searchingout, what was the exact affiliation of the churches you attended with such strict standards ?
__________________
You can't reach the world with your talents. People are sick and tired of religious talents. People need a Holy Ghost annointed church with real fruits to reach out and touch their lives. ~ Pastor Burrell Crabtree

In fact I think that the insinuation of "hateful" Pentecostals is coming mostly from the fertile imaginations of bitter, backslidden ex Apostolics who are constantly trying to find a way to justify their actions. ~ strait shooter


www.scottysweb.com
www.chrisscottonline.com
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-14-2008, 02:04 PM
TK Burk's Avatar
TK Burk TK Burk is offline
Lamb Saved & Shepherd Led


 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 3,729
Re: What does it really take?

SearchingOut,

I always premise my lessons on holiness by first saying: holiness does not make me better than someone else; holiness makes me better than myself. Those who live 'holiness' to be better than another person or to be accepted by another person are doing so for the wrong reason. Convictions are to be lived because a person loves Jesus, not because they seek the approval of men.

Focusing on performance can cause a person to become disillusioned, hurt, or legalistic. Disillusioned because they never are able to reach their goals through their efforts; hurt because they feel betrayed since the very things Jesus and His Word projects they should be, they do not reach; legalistic because they start comparing their position with others so they can make excuse for their shortcomings. I have seen each of these manifested in individuals who focus on fruit from their own performance. What we must do is find our identity IN CHRIST! I have learned that an identity crisis is the result of a lack of an identity in Christ.

Walking with the Law is about obedience; walking with Jesus in His New Covenant is about relationship. Time and again Jesus referenced a husband and wife’s relationship to this latter type walking. Is the husband any more married to the wife if he does the stuff on her honey-do list? Is the wife any more married to the husband if she fries his chicken exactly how he likes? No, they are married not because of what they do, but because of their commitment to each other. So WHY does the husband work the list and WHY does the wife cook a certain way—not to be MORE married, but instead to please the one to whom they are married. So this is not about doing to remain in love, but about doing because of love.

Similarly, the issues and particulars of the way I walk in my relationship with Jesus is governed, not by fear of losing my salvation, but by desiring to please the one with whom I have my salvation—Jesus. Therefore, my choices do not make me more saved, but instead remove obstacles that may limit me from growing closer to Jesus.

Why would I not want to do all that I can to please Jesus? He is the one who said to love Him with ALL our heart, soul, mind, and strength, and to love our neighbor as ourselves. God does look a man’s heart; but their neighbor only sees what is on the outside. Jesus was very down on those who offended and caused others to stumble through their outward actions and relationships. Paul agreed with this stance and told believers not to eat meat in the market if it might cause others to fall. Because of such things, we see that the age old question is still in effect: “Am I my brother’s keeper?” The Bible—especially the New Testament—clearly answers this with an echoing “YES!”

Many think legalism is just harsh demands forced upon another to make them DO something to be saved. Really though, legalism is self-inflicted and deceptive. Its true nature causes one to become self-righteous about their current achievements. Such complacency causes such a person to then barter away the new man’s opportunity to mature into more Christlikeness in preference to the old man’s struggle for self-preservation and self-gratification. Because they were in this latter crowd, the Pharisees are more aligned with liberals than they are with conservatives. Not that what they did was always against the things of God, but rather what they made allowances and excuses for not doing; these caused Jesus to speak out against their ranks.

The Pharisees’ unwillingness to change caused them to work against the very salvation they thought they were partaking of and protecting. It’s sad to think the freedom one thinks they have may actually be imprisoning them from growing in the grace and the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. Where men get confused is in not realizing it’s not about being set-free from enslavement, but rather in being enslaved to the correct master. One master is self-serving and binds and constricts his servants from spiritually maturing; the other master looks after his servants’ best interests, and because so, he keeps and protects them as his own, always seeking ways whereby they can grow into matured Christlikeness. Isn’t this second view what the scriptures are conferring when saying Jesus is the “author and finisher of our faith,” and that we are “complete in Him” (See Heb 12:2; Col 2:10)?

Remember, holiness does not make me better than someone else; holiness makes me better than myself. Because of this I think questions like “can I still do such-in-such and remain saved?” are better replaced with, “what more can I do to please Jesus since He saved me?” Every issue and circumstance of life may not always be salvational, but certainly they will always be relational; such are the issues of holiness.

I pray that Jesus gives you His peace and His wisdom!
__________________
The Bible is open to those that want Truth, and if they want Truth, they find Truth. They watch individuals squabble over Bible symbolism on the Internet, and leave the Message boards to enter into the real world where live people dwell, and they find Truth. The World Wide Web is full of Internet Ayatollahs who speak their mind. There is only one Truth, and it is not hidden. No matter what anyone says, Truth still converts the sincere.
 -DD Benincasa, 12/06/03

www.tkburk.com
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-18-2008, 11:04 AM
2020Vision 2020Vision is offline
Banned


 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 689
Re: What does it really take?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TK Burk View Post
SearchingOut,

I always premise my lessons on holiness by first saying: holiness does not make me better than someone else; holiness makes me better than myself.
Wow!! I really like that!

Last edited by Tina; 12-18-2008 at 11:13 AM. Reason: fixed quote
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

 
User Infomation
Your Avatar

Latest Threads
- by Salome
- by Salome

Help Support AFF!

Advertisement




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:53 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2026, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.