TRANSCRIPT Of Message By HANEY!!!!!!!!!!!!

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by Stephanas

Statistics must be about the most malleable thing known to man, especially when used by partisan Pentecostals.

The AoG reported 450,340 "conversions" in 2006. That is a relatively meaningless number that undoubtedly includes everybody that said a prayer, attended a drama, or drove by a church on a hot Sunday when the church windows were propped open. (They are first cousins to Oneness Pentecostals)

Water baptisms more honestly reflect the number of "new believers." In 2006 the AoG reported 114,972 water baptisms.

In the same year (2006) the AoG reported 91,893 Spirit Baptisms.

That's more like 80% of new believers receiving the Baptism of the Holy Ghost.

I wonder what the "conversions"/Spirit Baptisms ratio is for Oneness Churches?

My goodness. What a horrific twisting of numbers.

You're right about statistics being "malleable". You just proved it by your ridicoulous distorting of the numbers to supposedly show that 80% of AG converts get filled with the Holy Ghost. It's funny how you talked about numbers being malleable in the hands of "partisan Pentecostals" , then went on to sound quite partisan yourself.

So according to your figuring, no-one should be considered "converted" in AG churches unless they're baptized... And of those, you say 80% of those were filled with the Holy Ghost, so therefore they have an 80% rate of Holy Ghost infilling? Are you serious?

The key to this here is that YOU have decided what a "convert" is in an AG church. How about letting them speak for themselves, instead of you trying to "work the numbers" (their numbers) to prove a point? Dont distort their numbers for them. If anyone is going to distort the numbers, how about letting them do it themselves? I'd rather let them speak for themselves, and I'll go with their definition of what a new convert is, not your obviously self-serving definition. Lets me be real here: It's a documented fact that the AoG counts as converts those who make "decisions for Christ", ( those who accept 'Jesus as their savior', etc)... it's NOT simply "everybody that said a prayer, attended a drama, or drove by a church on a hot Sunday when the church windows were propped open" , as you put it .

That strikes me as either wishful thinking on your part, or just straight-up intellectual dishonesty. You eliminate about 335,000 of the AG "converts" from your numbers, to make it seem like they're not really converts at all? You cut down the original number (THE AG's OWN NUMBER) of converts by about 74%... and then you work downward from there? Who are you kidding?

And then you finish off your post by questioning how Onenes churches compare in this regard to the AG? .....as if to imply that the AG's numbers are comparable or better than Oneness churches in general? Please.

Take off the rose colored glasses buddy. If 80% of the AG 'converts' were getting filled with the Holy Ghost, they denomination wouldnt have expressed alarm at the low percentage of Holy Ghost infilling. If it was as you're implying, their own Assistant General Secretary Michael Crabtree would not have said "If we continue this trend, in 10 years we will have a very small percentage of Pentecostals in the Assemblies of God." http://rss.ag.org/articles/detail.cf..._Source=search

The Assemblies of God's own own report is HERE, if you want to take a look . You'll notice they use phrases like "an alarming trend", "another alarming statistic", "broad serious issues", etc. Their own report and their own assesment of the situation doesn't paint the rosy picture you're trying to create.

[Stephanas]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

My goodness. What a horrific twisting of numbers.

You're right about statistics being "malleable". You just proved it by your ridicoulous distorting of the numbers to supposedly show that 80% of AG converts get filled with the Holy Ghost. It's funny how you talked about numbers being malleable in the hands of "partisan Pentecostals" , then went on to sound quite partisan yourself.

So according to your figuring, no-one should be considered "converted" in AG churches unless they're baptized... And of those, you say 80% of those were filled with the Holy Ghost, so therefore they have an 80% rate of Holy Ghost infilling? Are you serious?

The key to this here is that YOU have decided what a "convert" is in an AG church. How about letting them speak for themselves, instead of you trying to "work the numbers" (their numbers) to prove a point? Dont distort their numbers for them. If anyone is going to distort the numbers, how about letting them do it themselves? I'd rather let them speak for themselves, and I'll go with their definition of what a new convert is, not your obviously self-serving definition. Lets me be real here: It's a documented fact that the AoG counts as converts those who make "decisions for Christ", ( those who accept 'Jesus as their savior', etc)... it's NOT simply "everybody that said a prayer, attended a drama, or drove by a church on a hot Sunday when the church windows were propped open" , as you put it .

That strikes me as either wishful thinking on your part, or just straight-up intellectual dishonesty. You eliminate about 335,000 of the AG "converts" from your numbers, to make it seem like they're not really converts at all? You cut down the original number (THE AG's OWN NUMBER) of converts by about 74%... and then you work downward from there? Who are you kidding?

And then you finish off your post by questioning how Onenes churches compare in this regard to the AG? .....as if to imply that the AG's numbers are comparable or better than Oneness churches in general? Please.

Take off the rose colored glasses buddy. If 80% of the AG 'converts' were getting filled with the Holy Ghost, they denomination wouldnt have expressed alarm at the low percentage of Holy Ghost infilling. If it was as you're implying, their own Assistant General Secretary Michael Crabtree would not have said "If we continue this trend, in 10 years we will have a very small percentage of Pentecostals in the Assemblies of God." http://rss.ag.org/articles/detail.cf..._Source=search

The Assemblies of God's own own report is HERE, if you want to take a look . You'll notice they use phrases like "an alarming trend", "another alarming statistic", "broad serious issues", etc. Their own report and their own assesment of the situation doesn't paint the rosy picture you're trying to create.

“Buddy”

I apologize for being unable to rise to the emotional investment in my posting that I have inspired in you. Thank you for the interesting articles.

I stand by my assertion that “conversions,” despite whatever emphasis the AoG statisticians may place on them is a relatively meaningless number. The proof is in your referenced article and in Charles Crabtree’s angst over the AoG only retaining 4% of these “converts.”

I did not say that the AoG saw 80% of “converts” baptized in the Spirit. I said that, according to the AoG statistics, 80% of the total numbers of those baptized in water were baptized in the Spirit.

Is the point of your posting to argue that only 20% of the membership of the AoG has received the Baptism of the Holy Ghost? If so, what information are you using to support that argument?

And then you finish off your post by questioning how Onenes churches compare in this regard to the AG? .....as if to imply that the AG's numbers are comparable or better than Oneness churches in general? Please.

Any implication in my question, “I wonder what the "conversions"/Spirit Baptisms ratio is for Oneness Churches?” belongs to your interpretation and not to my question. As far as I know, we’re on the same team “buddy.”

The point of my question was to underscore the fact that Oneness churches don’t track “conversions,” and, as a result, we have no idea what percentage of people who pray an initial prayer at a Oneness church go on to receive the Spirit baptism.

I’ve never even seen any data from a Oneness organization that would tell us what percentage of people who are baptized in Oneness churches receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

Do you have statistics, comparable to the published AoG statistics, for any Oneness organization? Until we have those numbers, we are only comparing statistics to opinions.

In my opinion the Oneness movement has a greater rate of water baptized people receiving the Spirit baptism, but I don't know what number of Oneness "conversions" continue to Spirit baptism and/or church membership.