Sometimes It's Permissible...

[freeatlast]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Is that to the Christian or the Roman solider?

Either way, he is the minister of God to bring wrath upon those warned not to do evil, but do evil anyway.

Where are we told not to be a part of those "ministers of God", appointed by God to bring his wrath on evil doers.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by freeatlast

Either way, he is the minister of God to bring wrath upon those warned not to do evil, but do evil anyway.

Where are we told not to be a part of those "ministers of God", appointed by God to bring his wrath on evil doers.

Paul's point was that the Roman authorities were an established and ordained earthly power to be honored and respected. Paul also admonished Christians to faithfully pay taxes to the corrupt Roman Empire. But history shows that when Christians in high ranking Roman offices or the Roman military were faced with the prospects of taking a life... they refused and it brought much persecution to them.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Paul's point was that the Roman authorities were an established and ordained earthly power to be honored and respected. Paul also admonished Christians to faithfully pay taxes to the corrupt Roman Empire. But history shows that when Christians in high ranking Roman offices or the Roman military were faced with the prospects of taking a life... they refused and it brought much persecution to them.

Correct, and even 4th century writers understood the simple doctrine of non-violence.

"The Lord, in disarming Peter, disarmed every soldier."
~Tertullian’s On Idolatry


"Christians could never slay their enemies. For the more that kings, rulers, and peoples have persecuted them everywhere, the more Christians have increased in number and grown in strength."
~Origen Contra Celsius Book VII


"Wherever arms have glittered, they must be banished and exterminated from thence."~Lactantius’ Divine Institutes IV, 6

"As simple and quiet sisters, peace and love require no arms. For it is not in war, but in peace, that we are trained."
~Clement of Alexandria Chapter 12 of Book 1

"In their wars, therefore, the Etruscans use the trumpet, the Arcadians the pipe, the Sicilians the pectides, the Cretans the lyre, the Lacedaemonians the flute, the Thracians the horn, the Egyptians the drum, and the Arabians the cymbal. The one instrument of peace, the Word alone by which we honor God, is what we employ."
~Clement of Alexandria Chapter 4 of Book 2

"Above all, Christians are not allowed to correct with violence."
~Clement of Alexandria

"I do not wish to be a king; I am not anxious to be rich; I decline military command... Die to the world, repudiating the madness that is in it."
~Tatian’s Address to the Greeks 11

"We who formerly used to murder one another now refrain from even making war upon our enemies."
~The First Apology of Justin Martyr 39

"Whatever Christians would not wish others to do to them, they do not to others. And they comfort their oppressors and make them their friends; they do good to their enemies…. Through love towards their oppressors, they persuade them to become Christians."
~The Apology of Aristides 15

"A soldier of the civil authority must be taught not to kill men and to refuse to do so if he is commanded, and to refuse to take an oath. If he is unwilling to comply, he must be rejected for baptism. A military commander or civic magistrate must resign or be rejected. If a believer seeks to become a soldier, he must be rejected, for he has despised God."
~Hippolytus of Rome

"There is nothing better than peace, in which all warfare of things in heaven and things on earth is abolished."
~Ignatius of Antioch to the Ephesians 13

"The new covenant that brings back peace and the law that gives life have gone forth over the whole earth, as the prophets said: "For out of Zion will go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem; and he will instruct many people; and they will break down their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks, and they will no longer learn to make war." These people formed their swords and war lances into plowshares,” that is, into instruments used for peaceful purposes. So now, they are unaccustomed to fighting, so when they are struck, they offer also the other cheek."
~Irenaeus

"We would rather shed our own blood than stain our hands and our conscience with that of another. As a result, an ungrateful world is now enjoying–and for a long period has enjoyed–a benefit from Christ. For by his means, the rage of savage ferocity has been softened and has begun to withhold hostile hands from the blood of a fellow creature. In fact, if all men without exception…would lend an ear for a while to his salutary and peaceful rules,…the whole world would be living in the most peaceful tranquility. The world would have turned the use of steel into more peaceful uses and would unite together in blessed harmony."
~Arnobius

"Wars are scattered all over the earth with the bloody horror of camps. The whole world is wet with mutual blood. And murder–which is admitted to be a crime in the case of an individual–is called a virtue when it is committed wholesale. Impunity is claimed for the wicked deeds, not because they are guiltless, but because the cruelty is perpetrated on a grand scale!"
~Cyprian of Carthage

"Those soldiers were filled with wonder and admiration at the grandeur of the man’s piety and generosity and were struck with amazement. They felt the force of this example of pity. As a result, many of them were added to the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ and threw off the belt of military service."
~Disputation of Archelaus and Manes

"We have rejected such spectacles as the Coliseum. How then, when we do not even look on killing lest we should contract guilt and pollution, can we put people to death?"
~Athenagoras of Athens’ A Plea for the Christians

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by freeatlast

Either way, he is the minister of God to bring wrath upon those warned not to do evil, but do evil anyway.

Where are we told not to be a part of those "ministers of God", appointed by God to bring his wrath on evil doers.

Romans is not speaking of Christians or a Christian goverment.

John 18:36

"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants FIGHT, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."

Jesus' goverment is a non violent one that wins through means of peace, not by the means of a sword.

Mat 26:52

"Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for ALL they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."

All is 100% who would take the sword in defense would die by the same means. While the Roman Empire was placed over Jerusalem by occupation, the Christians were still instructed to live in peace with all men. To live a peaceful and quite life, meant to make no waves with those who were in power.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com