What will Liberal's/Baptist's do when

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by pelathais

The one thing that they did not need however, was the remission of sins. They had already received that when they repented under John's ministry. Mark 1:4.

You mean when they repented and were baptized under John's ministry?

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

You mean when they repented and were baptized under John's ministry?

I am looking for better ways of articulating this.

John apparenty required the evidence of a changed life before he would baptize someone. Thus, in Luke 3:8 he tells the multitudes to "bring forth therefore fruits meet (or worthy) of repentance." In order to be a candidate for John's baptism of repentance for the remission of sins a person had to be truly converted and their lives changed.

Since John's disciples in Acts 19 already had received the "remission of sins" either through repentance before being baptized of John or by John's baptism - what did they receive when they were rebaptized in Jesus name in Acts 19?

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by pelathais

I am looking for better ways of articulating this.

John apparenty required the evidence of a changed life before he would baptize someone. Thus, in Luke 3:8 he tells the multitudes to "bring forth therefore fruits meet (or worthy) of repentance." In order to be a candidate for John's baptism of repentance for the remission of sins a person had to be truly converted and their lives changed.

Since John's disciples in Acts 19 already had received the "remission of sins" either through repentance before being baptized of John or by John's baptism - what did they receive when they were rebaptized in Jesus name in Acts 19?

I see it a little differently than you are articulating.

Here's the picture: We go to the Jordan river and hear John preach to turn to God because the kingdom of God is at hand ie: the Messiah is coming. I'm convicted and decide to be baptized by John. He has those of us going through the conversion process...get in the water and publically confess our sins ...then he dunks us (not sure if he baptizes in his own name or not).

After we believe, repent, confess, and are baptized, John preaches that he expects us to produce fruit/actions/works that witness to the fact that we really have repented of our sins/turned from our sinful ways.

Mark 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

Matthew 3:5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, 6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins. 7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: 9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance:


John baptized them unto repentance...works do not come before repentance yet John baptized unto repentance not after repentance and works. It's a BAPTISM OF REPENTANCE for/in order to remit sins.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Since John's disciples in Acts 19 already had received the "remission of sins" either through repentance before being baptized of John or by John's baptism - what did they receive when they were rebaptized in Jesus name in Acts 19?

Since I believe the Spirit of God remits our sin by the applied (sprinkling) blood of Christ in water baptism when we call on Jesus name, I see this as part of our new birth and part of entering into the new covenant through faith in the work of Christ and his shed blood.

Once again, they were rebaptized in the name of Jesus to be born again and enter into the new covenant brought in by the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ... We are buried with him in baptism. Through baptism of water and drinking of the Spirit, we enter into the body of Christ or we baptized into Christ.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by Sam

The question was asked of someone else but I will butt in and reply.

I went from repentance, baptism in Jesus' Name, and the Holy Ghost Baptism to be saved to repentance to be saved; baptism in Jesus' Name as a testimony to my belief in the death, burial, and resurrection and public burial of the old person I used to be; and the Holy Ghost Baptism as an enablement or empowerment to serve God.

Sam, I agree doctrinally with your statement.

The Holy Ghost is the Promise of God to those who believe unto salvation.

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

I see it a little differently than you are articulating.

Here's the picture: We go to the Jordan river and hear John preach to turn to God because the kingdom of God is at hand ie: the Messiah is coming. I'm convicted and decide to be baptized by John. He has those of us going through the conversion process...get in the water and publically confess our sins ...then he dunks us (not sure if he baptizes in his own name or not).

After we believe, repent, confess, and are baptized, John preaches that he expects us to produce fruit/actions/works that witness to the fact that we really have repented of our sins/turned from our sinful ways.

Mark 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

Matthew 3:5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, 6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins. 7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: 9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance:


John baptized them unto repentance...works do not come before repentance yet John baptized unto repentance not after repentance and works. It's a BAPTISM OF REPENTANCE for/in order to remit sins.

Good breakdown, Sis.
We seem to view it the same way.

From what I see, John baptized those who felt conviction, repented, and confessed their sins. But I dont see that he demanded fruits of repentance or evidence of a changed life as a precondition to them being baptized. His expectation was that anyone who got baptized would from thenceforth bring forth fruits meet for repentance.

Good post.

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by Sam

I went from repentance, baptism in Jesus' Name, and the Holy Ghost Baptism to be saved to repentance to be saved; baptism in Jesus' Name as a testimony to my belief in the death, burial, and resurrection and public burial of the old person I used to be; and the Holy Ghost Baptism as an enablement or empowerment to serve God.

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

Sam, I agree doctrinally with your statement.

Baptism as a testimony to our belief?

I'm still waitng for someone to show me the scripture that says baptism is "a testimony to our belief" or "an outward sign of an inward change", etc.

I DO know the scriputure verses that refer to baptism being for "remission of sins" (Acts 2:38) and for "washing away of sins" (Acts 22:16). But the verses that speak of baptism's purpose being for "an outard sign" or "an outward testmony", etc... I've never seen those --- anywhere.

Sam, Jermyn, anyone... Help me here.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

Good breakdown, Sis.
We seem to view it the same way.

From what I see, John baptized those who felt conviction, repented, and confessed their sins. But I dont see that he demanded fruits of repentance or evidence of a changed life as a precondition to them being baptized. His expectation was that anyone who got baptized would from thenceforth bring forth fruits meet for repentance.

Good post.

I'm not arguing. You may be right. I don't think the record is clear enough there to say definitely either way. In my opinion, I see John refusing to baptize people because he didn't think they had sincerely repented but I may just be reading something in that is not there.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

Good breakdown, Sis.
We seem to view it the same way.

From what I see, John baptized those who felt conviction, repented, and confessed their sins. But I dont see that he demanded fruits of repentance or evidence of a changed life as a precondition to them being baptized. His expectation was that anyone who got baptized would from thenceforth bring forth fruits meet for repentance.

Good post.

Nice summation.

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by Sam

I'm not arguing. You may be right. I don't think the record is clear enough there to say definitely either way. In my opinion, I see John refusing to baptize people because he didn't think they had sincerely repented but I may just be reading something in that is not there.

I'm not arguing either,Sam...

But from the text, I dont see that John refused to baptize anyone.

In Matt 3:6-11 it appears he was skeptical of the Pharisees and Saducess when they came to him (which was understandable, since their "righteousness" tended to be questionable). But from what I see, he didnt refuse to baptize them, or anyone else who came to him:

Matthew 3:
5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, 6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: 9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: