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Old 02-17-2009, 08:22 PM
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pelathais pelathais is offline
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Re: three days in the belly

1 Peter 3:18-22 speaks of Him preaching "unto the spirits in prison." Not to bring up the Book of Enoch again...

It does seem that He didn't spend the whole time sawing logs.
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Old 02-17-2009, 08:33 PM
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Re: three days in the belly

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Originally Posted by pelathais View Post
1 Peter 3:18-22 speaks of Him preaching "unto the spirits in prison." Not to bring up the Book of Enoch again...

It does seem that He didn't spend the whole time sawing logs.
Doesn't Peter say Jesus preached to those spiritual prisoners through Noah by His Spirit in the days of Noah?
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Old 02-17-2009, 08:43 PM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: three days in the belly

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Originally Posted by Sam View Post
Doesn't Peter say Jesus preached to those spiritual prisoners through Noah by His Spirit in the days of Noah?
See what Sam said.

Also could Yeshua have went anywhere before he was raised from the dead?
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Old 02-17-2009, 09:07 PM
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pelathais pelathais is offline
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Re: three days in the belly

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Originally Posted by Sam View Post
Doesn't Peter say Jesus preached to those spiritual prisoners through Noah by His Spirit in the days of Noah?
uh... no.

Dude, you were batting 1000 all last week - you were an an amazing font of knowledge - and now ... what's happened to you? (lol)
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Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
See what Sam said.

Also could Yeshua have went anywhere before he was raised from the dead?
Yes, Yeshua could have pretty much done anything He wanted at any time. But the question is, what did He do?
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Old 02-17-2009, 10:06 PM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: three days in the belly

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Originally Posted by pelathais View Post
uh... no.

Dude, you were batting 1000 all last week - you were an an amazing font of knowledge - and now ... what's happened to you? (lol)

Yes, Yeshua could have pretty much done anything He wanted at any time. But the question is, what did He do?
What did Peter preach he did on the first sermon preached at Pentecost?

22: Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24: Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25: For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28: Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29: Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30: Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31: He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32: This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Acts 2:22-32

Jesus was in Hades where all the dead go. It is the grave same place David expected to go and did. His soul and his flesh was delivered from there by the resurrection! Look carefully at verse 31.

The resurrection of Christ is the GOOD NEWS! That although men die they can live again.

David SLEPT with his Fathers. Peter defines that clearly in verse 29. It says he was both dead and buried.

Paul taught us that Jesus was the FIRSTFRUITS OF THEM THAT SLEPT.

20: But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21: For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

Of all who ever died (slept) he was the FIRST to be raised from death and gain eternal life. Paul says Jesus was sleeping until his resurrection.

As concerning the Lords death it was what he HAD TO DO to pay for our sins. After that was accomplished God could raise him up again.

The key is to understand RESURRECTION. It means "a standing up again" or to "raise".

We raise from the dead. Not from life. Notice all the preaching about the resurrection. Thats the greatest event since the creation of the world!
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Old 02-17-2009, 10:27 PM
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Re: three days in the belly

This article is from pages 10 and 11 of the December 2008 issue of The Pentecostal Herald which arrived in my mail on November 24, 2008.

Where Are the Dead?
by David Norris
Some years ago I took a university class that examined how philosophers sought to prove the existence of God. The course surveyed numerous philosophers, and in the end we read a book written by the professor himself. As we began to discuss his book, the professor made a heart rendering profession, a confession, no doubt influenced by the recent loss of his wife to cancer. He offered, “If I knew that there was something after this life, something that made sense of all the suffering in this world, then I am quite certain I could believe in God.” Such a statement is telling. The professor’s whole belief system was linked to his view of life after death. Arguably, every religious tradition must speak to the question of suffering and must in some sense address the question of life after death. Further, people do not merely ask, “Is there life after death?” They want specific details as to the reality that a person experiences when he dies. Significantly, not only does the Bible give considerable attention to this important question, it is not too much to say that the Bible proclaims life beyond this world as the ultimate reality.

The Old Testament provides an important foundation as to what happens to people who die. There was an understanding among the Jewish people in covenant relationship with God that they would “rest” with their fathers. (See Genesis 47:30; Deuteronomy 31:16; 2 Samuel 7:12). Further, the Old Testament does not merely speak of death only in terms of “rest.” The Hebrew word that refers to the place of the dead is “sheol.” Some times the word is translated “pit”; other times, it is translated “grave”; often it is translated as “hell.” Yet, even when rendering the word “sheol” as “hell,” the translators of the King James Version did not intend to present sheol merely as a universal place of torment. Rather, the teaching of the Old Testament is that all dead, whether good or bad, went to sheol.

Jesus taught in some detail about the abode of the dead in Luke chapter 16. He explained how that in the Old Testament afterlife, both the good and bad existed in a single place. First, Jesus described the death of a man named Lazarus, about whom He reported no moral failing. Jesus explained that Lazarus was carried by angels to a place of comfort, a place which He termed “Abraham’s bosom.” Jesus contrasted the fate of Lazarus with another man, a rich man whose miserly ways were apparently indicative of a broader lifestyle wholly given to selfish living. When the rich man died, he too was brought to this same abode of the dead, but there was a considerable gulf between where Lazarus was being comforted and where the rich man undoubtedly was suffering. Jesus made it clear that not only was the chasm between the rich man to Lazarus not negotiable, He explained as well that the chasm between the abode of the dead and the place of the living was not negotiable either. Neither the rich man nor an emissary could return to earth with a message.

There are several points that become clear by Jesus’ teaching. First, those who die have consciousness. When the Bible speaks of the “sleep” of one who has died, it has reference to his body. Certainly from a human perspective, it hardly seems possible to speak of the bodies of those who die as “sleeping.” Physical bodies decay and disintegrate into the dust of the earth. Yet, so certain is the power of God to reconstitute things that have perished that the Bible can refer to the death of our bodies as merely “sleep;”

There is a second important point that can be understood from this teaching by Jesus: what happens in this life affects life after death. For some, this idea is so distasteful that they argue that one cannot take seriously the teaching of Jesus in this instance because He was merely telling a parable. Such a critique is unfounded, however, because even when Jesus told parables, He only narrated events that had their basis in fact. He told of farmers and bridegrooms and widows who needed to be avenged. He told of things that existed He never created realities that were not, in fact, true.

It is God who appoints “unto men once to die” (Hebrews 9:27), and it is God who closes the curtain between the dead and the living. (See Ecclesiastes 9:5) Yet, some people seek to bypass God’s prerogatives by attempting to gain knowledge of the dead through alternate measures. The Bible makes clear that fortunetellers, seances, and necromancers are not to be visited. (See Leviticus 19:31; 20:6; Deuteronomy 18:11). Those who attempt to cross into the hereafter by such means are actually trafficking in the realm of evil spirits. Only one thing can be expected: deceit. Real information about the state of the dead can reliably come from only one source: the Bible.

While the Old Testament offers only glimpses of life after death, the New Testament is replete with such information. The difference between the two testaments occurs for a very important reason; while the Old Testament anticipates only the effect of Jesus’ work on Calvary, the New Testament realize its fruition. Calvary’s victory was total and complete. Not only was Jesus’ death effectual in taking away our sin; it was also effectual in loosening Satan’s power in the afterlife. Underlying the Gospel narrative is a conflict between Satan and Jesus (Matthew 4:1-11), a conflict that Jesus would win. (See John 14:30). Sadly, prior to the cross, Satan consistently tormented people to fear death. (See Hebrews 2:14-15). The triumph of the cross allowed that because of the work of Jesus, satan’s power over death was broken. (See Hebrews 2:15). When Jesus was dying, He proclaimed, “It is finished.” He was not only speaking as the One sacrificed Himself in our stead; Jesus’ proclamation was also like that of a conquering general who had defeated his foe.

The New Testament records significant events associated with the death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus. The psalmist prophesied that before Jesus ascended into heaven, He would first descend triumphantly to sheol --hades in the New Testament-- and ascend, taking with Him a whole host of those who had been “captive” (Psalm 68:18; Ephesians 4:8-10). Thus, when the victory of the cross was accomplished, Jesus descended to the abode of the dead and boldly proclaimed (“preached”) His total victory over Satan (1 Peter 3:19). In demonstration of His conquest, He made an open show of the devil, mocking and humiliating him. (See Colossians 2;15). Jesus then claimed for Himself the keys of death and hell. (See Revelation 1:18). Finally, Jesus ascended to paradise, but He did not do so alone. Jesus took with Him those who in the Old Testament had lived in covenant relationship with God.

Twenty times in the Old Testament it refers to descending to sheol or as sheol being “down.” In the New Testament, when writers described paradise they referred to it as up. (See 2 Corinthians 12:4). Whereas the Old Testament was oblique in its pronouncements of life after death, Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would that day be with Him in paradise. (See Luke 23:43.) Indeed, the New Testament celebrates that those who die will immediately be ushered into the presence of the Lord. Paul professed, “to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord” (2 Corinthians 5:8).

Certainly the Bible has more to say about life after death than what we can address in this short article. And even if we would survey all the biblical passages related to life after death, there are still some things that we cannot know this side of the curtain of death. (See 1 Corinthians 1;12.) Yet, what we do know is enough. We do know that this life is merely the vestibule of eternity, the antechamber to the hereafter. We know that compared to eternity, even severe and prolonged suffering is just “light affliction ... for a moment” (2 Corinthians 4:17). And finally, we know that the Bible’s invitation to faith is actually an invitation to hope. If you are a hurting person, the church is still inviting, Jesus is still saving, and heaven is still waiting for you.
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Old 02-17-2009, 11:43 PM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: three days in the belly

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Sam

The Old Testament provides an important foundation as to what happens to people who die. There was an understanding among the Jewish people in covenant relationship with God that they would “rest” with their fathers. (See Genesis 47:30; Deuteronomy 31:16; 2 Samuel 7:12). Further, the Old Testament does not merely speak of death only in terms of “rest.” The Hebrew word that refers to the place of the dead is “sheol.” Some times the word is translated “pit”; other times, it is translated “grave”; often it is translated as “hell.” Yet, even when rendering the word “sheol” as “hell,” the translators of the King James Version did not intend to present sheol merely as a universal place of torment. Rather, the teaching of the Old Testament is that all dead, whether good or bad, went to sheol.
Very good.

Quote:
Sam

Jesus taught in some detail about the abode of the dead in Luke chapter 16. He explained how that in the Old Testament afterlife, both the good and bad existed in a single place. First, Jesus described the death of a man named Lazarus, about whom He reported no moral failing. Jesus explained that Lazarus was carried by angels to a place of comfort, a place which He termed “Abraham’s bosom.” Jesus contrasted the fate of Lazarus with another man, a rich man whose miserly ways were apparently indicative of a broader lifestyle wholly given to selfish living. When the rich man died, he too was brought to this same abode of the dead, but there was a considerable gulf between where Lazarus was being comforted and where the rich man undoubtedly was suffering. Jesus made it clear that not only was the chasm between the rich man to Lazarus not negotiable, He explained as well that the chasm between the abode of the dead and the place of the living was not negotiable either. Neither the rich man nor an emissary could return to earth with a message.
If this is NOT a parable we have some problems. As the writer states the place where the dead went to was Sheol. In the New Testament the same place is called Hades.

The writers of the Old Testament described it not as a place of life.

4: Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake.
5: For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave (Sheol) who shall give thee thanks? Psalms 6:4-5

Its a place where one neither remembers YHWH or gives him thanks.

10: Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave,(Sheol) whither thou goest. Ecc. 9:10

It is a place where there is no knowledge. Why?

4: His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. Psalms 146:4

His thoughts perish. He is no longer aware.

Job asked:

14: If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. Job 14:14

Job knew he would die. He also believed he would live again. He mentions the time his "change would come". He understood he would WAIT until that happened.

How did he describe that wait?

13: If I wait, the grave (Sheol) is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness.
14: I have said to corruption, Thou art my father: to the worm, Thou are my mother, and my sister.
15: And where is now my hope? as for my hope, who shall see it?
16: They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when our rest together is in the dust. Job 17:13-16

He said he would wait in Sheol. He describes this as making a bed in the darkness. In other words he would be sleeping! Note that none of these verses say that only the body dies but rather that WE die. That of us that makes us personal.

He describes the pit as a place where we rest together IN THE DUST. This means the grave.



Does not this sound much different than what we see in Abrahams bosom?

Why the difference in what the Old Testament scriptures and what Jesus is telling the Pharisees?

Why would Jesus be teaching about Abrahams bosom being a place where the dead are alive when the inspired writers before him taught otherwise?

This is the basis upon which I believe it is a parable.
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Old 02-17-2009, 11:06 PM
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pelathais pelathais is offline
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Re: three days in the belly

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Originally Posted by helen_febus View Post
That is indeed what the bible says.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
What did Peter preach he did on the first sermon preached at Pentecost?
1 Peter 3:18-22

Read it out loud to me. Help me to understand this strange and foreign tongue you speak.
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Old 02-17-2009, 09:40 PM
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helen_febus helen_febus is offline
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Re: three days in the belly

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Originally Posted by Sam View Post
Doesn't Peter say Jesus preached to those spiritual prisoners through Noah by His Spirit in the days of Noah?
That is indeed what the bible says.
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