Babylon in Revelations

[tbpew]

D4T,
I am still quivering under my desk in the fetal position, just plain skeerd to take on this issue because I know you've got some "partial preterist punch pending".

Since our last exchange, I have sought God's counsels and have meditated on some scriptural settings, in particular: Jer 51:6-12, Rev 14:7-12, 16:15-21, 17 1-7, and Rev 18.

My premise (admittedly a bias) is that the city of Babylon we read about in the OT would be a foreshadow of what Mystery Babylon would be in the realm of spiritual dynamics.

I submit that as Jerusalem was a center in the dynamic of natural Israel and New Jerusalem is the revelation of God's holy assembly, the same applies to Babylon and Mystery Babylon. Mystery Babyon will not be a place, but rather a community comprised of believers in some false salvation (I was searching for God to provide me some clearer phrase to express this, but for now I do not have a better one). The power that comes from earthly wealth is worshipped as the alternative to abiding in God's house. This is why I made an earlier reference to Balaam as a natural example; seeing gain as godliness.

We read in Jerimiah 51:7 that Babyon was God's GOLDEN CUP and those nations that drink from it become drunken, the identical language is applied to the Great Whore of Rev 17:4.

Babylon [hath been] a golden cup in the LORD'S hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad.

The fornication bears a fruit. The fruit supplies the feedstock for a wine. The wine induces a drunken condition.

I continue to be drawn to a couple of strange things:
SEDUCTION is at the core of this MYSTERY BABYLON, but I am confident it is not in any manner SEXUAL. Since we understand the power of seduction as it pertains to a harlot and fornications, it is used as the language to convey the imagery; the rulers, kings, and nations are drawn to her ability to provide pleasures.

Then the most fascinating thing is recorded by John in Rev 17:6

And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

John looked upon this imagery WITH GREAT ADMIRATION. An image that he understood to be drunken with blood of Saints and martyrs.

What ever it is, its seduction transcends our normal ability to even imagine; its inticements are fully enveloped with a mystical charm and beauty (of some kind). So much so, that it prompts the angel to ask:

Wherefore didst thou marvel?

So. prompted by this thread's OP, I speculated and proposed a MYSTERY (spiritual) alternative [faith] that 'invests' all confidence in the riches (a Golden Cup) in the economies of this world. Then, I wondered outloud (possibly, in hindsight a mistake), concerning whether the blood of saints and martyrs may resulted from something similar to what charmed John...that in looking into this Golden Cup of Mystery Babylon, their vision was overtaken by something 'marvelous' and they were trapped.

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by tbpew

D4T,
I am still quivering under my desk in the fetal position, just plain skeerd to take on this issue because I know you've got some "partial preterist punch pending".

Since our last exchange, I have sought God's counsels and have meditated on some scriptural settings, in particular: Jer 51:6-12, Rev 14:7-12, 16:15-21, 17 1-7, and Rev 18.

My premise (admittedly a bias) is that the city of Babylon we read about in the OT would be a foreshadow of what Mystery Babylon would be in the realm of spiritual dynamics.

I submit that as Jerusalem was a center in the dynamic of natural Israel and New Jerusalem is the revelation of God's holy assembly, the same applies to Babylon and Mystery Babylon. Mystery Babyon will not be a place, but rather a community comprised of believers in some false salvation (I was searching for God to provide me some clearer phrase to express this, but for now I do not have a better one). The power that comes from earthly wealth is worshipped as the alternative to abiding in God's house. This is why I made an earlier reference to Balaam as a natural example; seeing gain as godliness.

We read in Jerimiah 51:7 that Babyon was God's GOLDEN CUP and those nations that drink from it become drunken, the identical language is applied to the Great Whore of Rev 17:4.

Babylon [hath been] a golden cup in the LORD'S hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad.

The fornication bears a fruit. The fruit supplies the feedstock for a wine. The wine induces a drunken condition.

I continue to be drawn to a couple of strange things:
SEDUCTION is at the core of this MYSTERY BABYLON, but I am confident it is not in any manner SEXUAL. Since we understand the power of seduction as it pertains to a harlot and fornications, it is used as the language to convey the imagery; the rulers, kings, and nations are drawn to her ability to provide pleasures.

Then the most fascinating thing is recorded by John in Rev 17:6

And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

John looked upon this imagery WITH GREAT ADMIRATION. An image that he understood to be drunken with blood of Saints and martyrs.

What ever it is, its seduction transcends our normal ability to even imagine; its inticements are fully enveloped with a mystical charm and beauty (of some kind). So much so, that it prompts the angel to ask:

Wherefore didst thou marvel?

So. prompted by this thread's OP, I speculated and proposed a MYSTERY (spiritual) alternative [faith] that 'invests' all confidence in the riches (a Golden Cup) in the economies of this world. Then, I wondered outloud (possibly, in hindsight a mistake), concerning whether the blood of saints and martyrs may resulted from something similar to what charmed John...that in looking into this Golden Cup of Mystery Babylon, their vision was overtaken by something 'marvelous' and they were trapped.

I will respond to your post in more detail a little later on...

I think that the combination of the prophets blood & what Jesus had to say is a very formidable consideration. Although no one is commenting on this aspect that failure to address such has made me appear as a one string guitarist so I will be forced to relent from bringing this up again and again.

But... making this quick post. The application of the Book Of The Revelation Of Jesus Christ will also have to do with the intended time of application.

Revelation 1:1 (a seemingly good place to start) tells us...

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:

I know that we have spoken about this before and I am aware of your feelings about time and the Bible's freedom from the constraints of such.

But doesn't the Bible say "Not many days hence" and other such time related terminologies. Are we to be able to have no faith whatsoever in the utterances of the word of God when it deals with time?

I bring this up because as long as we can take the template of the writings of Revelation and apply them any place we see a fit down the timeline of history then there are, assuredly, a number of places it would fit.

But whomever this great whore is she cannot fulfill 92% of the words spoken about her. She must fulfill them all since those words were penned from the very mouth of God.

My apologies that I haven't offered any answer to your questioning... as long as this post is... I am in a hurry and have to get back to work.

Please let me know what stirrings this brings in your own mind and what questions they compel you to offer me.

We learn most when we discuss with people who don't see things exactly like ourselves. That is when new and previously unsought realities begin to be placed within our minds. This is when growth occurs and I appreciate your input.

[tbpew]

dig,
you know I have the utmost respect for your approach and demeanor involving discussion of scripture.

Somehow this particular topic feels like we are riding two different rails through the same station. We can see each other, but we did not start at the same point and imagine different destinations.

I connect the Great Whore, with Mystery Babylon, the mother of Harlots.

My view of the scriptures we call the NT is that they testify of principles involving INVISIBLE things; things that have their reality in that which is ABOVE the earthly realm; the spiritual realm.

As such, I have never been big on looking to Rome or to Jerusalem or even to the US as being Mystery Babylon, The Mother of Harlots. This seduction transcends any one earthly kingdom or power.

So, I have tried to explain that I was out to consider that a "universal seductress" may be manifested in the earth's economies; these engines are the means for humankind to acquire wealth as a means to power. When this idea is peppered with the plain witness that "the love of money is the ROOT OF ALL EVIL", it seems to get some traction in my pondering.

I tossed that idea out in my first post. I bumped into something that you feel is a principle being ignored (things can not be 92% applicable). I have 0% problem agreeing with you on this hermeneutical requirement.

As one setting out to further chart an unknown river, I think it would be impossible to outline the whole trip to recruit other explorers.

If you already possess a 100% applicable "great whore" (I feel so funny writing that line), please catch me up.

PS: Dig, I am going to need you to connect the dots with your cite:
Luk 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the [day] following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

If every prophet MUST PERISH inside of Jerusalem, please share the principle for me that is established in the law. I need your help in supply of some of your thinking here.

[TJJJ]

Originally Posted by tbpew

dig,
you know I have the utmost respect for your approach and demeanor involving discussion of scripture.

Somehow this particular topic feels like we are riding two different rails through the same station. We can see each other, but we did not start at the same point and imagine different destinations.

I have never been big on Rome or Jerusalem or even the US being Mystery Babylon, The Mother of Harlots.

I connect the Great Whore, with Mystery Babylon, the mother of Harlots.

My view of the scriptures we call the NT is that they testify of principles involving INVISIBLE things; things that have their reality in that which is ABOVE the earthly realm; the spiritual realm.

As such, I have never been big on looking to Rome or to Jerusalem or even to the US as being Mystery Babylon, The Mother of Harlots. This seduction transcends any one earthly kingdom or power.

So, I have tried to explain that I was out to consider that a "universal seductress" may be manifested in the earth's economies; these engines are the means for humankind to acquire wealth as a means to power. When this idea is peppered with the plain witness that "the love of money is the ROOT OF ALL EVIL", it seems to get some traction in my pondering.

I tossed that idea out in my first post. I bumped into something that you feel is a principle being ignored (things can not be 92% applicable). I have 0% problem agreeing with you on this hermenutical requirement.

As one setting out to further explore an unknown river, I think it would be impossible to outline the whole trip to recruit other sojourners.

If you have already possess a 100% applicable "great whore", please catch me up.

PS: Dig, I am going to need you to connect the dots with your cite:
Luk 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the [day] following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

If every prophet MUST PERISH inside of Jerusalem, please share the principle for me that is established in the law. I need your help in supply of some your thinking here.

TBPEW

I will also allow Diggin to make his own reply, but you raise a very interesting point, one of which I have considered before myself.

One of the problems that I have with total and absolute preterism is that, it seems to be, in one way, similar to Futurism, in that they both seem to be extremes. I have brought up to others the idea of a principal or spirit of Babylon, one that reoccurs throughout time. If we take and apply that as a principal theory then it does change things a bit.

I don't know, it is interesting though and one that I have personally looked at for some time!

TJJJ

[Michael The Disciple]

No way it is Jerusalem. In the first century when it fell (again) the merchants of the Earth spent no time wailing and mourning. It was nothing economically compared to Rome. Neither did its judgment come in one hour. It was beseiged over time.

In this century Jerusalem would not survive more than a few weeks without the assistance of the USA. There is no comparison whatever between the economic might of America and Israel.

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by tbpew

So, I have tried to explain that I was out to consider that a "universal seductress" may be manifested in the earth's economies; these engines are the means for humankind to acquire wealth as a means to power. When this idea is peppered with the plain witness that "the love of money is the ROOT OF ALL EVIL", it seems to get some traction in my pondering.

Yes sir. I can certainly agree with this thought. The scriptural admonition that the love of money is the root of all evil is, indeed, a universal one that continues for as long as mankind breathes air on this earth.

The scriptures being discussed in the Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ would, most certainly, be the result of said tendency within the nature of man. That love of money, hence power, would be the base and driving force that led that great whore etc to her place of total and complete apostasy.

PS: Dig, I am going to need you to connect the dots with your cite:
Luk 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the [day] following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

If every prophet MUST PERISH inside of Jerusalem, please share the principle for me that is established in the law. I need your help in supply of some of your thinking here.

The basic thought that I have trying to get someone to address is this.

1. It is said in the Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ that the great harlot (or whatever other names that city is known by) is guilty of the blood of the prophets.

2. Jesus said of Jerusalem...

Luk 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the [day] following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.
Luk 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen [doth gather] her brood under [her] wings, and ye would not!
Luk 13:35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until [the time] come when ye shall say, Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

The Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ also said that great city would be made desolate.

These things do not, of their own accord, make Jerusalem the undeniable lone candidate but they would seem to, most certainly, make that great city a worthy candidate for careful consideration.

The identity of this great city had already been shared in Revelation 11.

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

The city would sit on seven mountains.
Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

Jerusalem sits on Mt. Goath, Mt. Gareb, Mt. Acra, Mt. Bezetha, Mt. Zion, Mt. Ophel, and Mt. Moriah.

There may very well be some overflowing universal application that we see played over and over again as man continues to fall for the love of money that comes so naturally but these scriptures seem, to me, to speak to a very real city have a very literal application.

I don't deny, in the least, the universal application that you speak of. But I do not feel that any universal application would be so sans any specific and tangible interpretation. Especially in the face of such a growing cloud of witnesses.

[mfblume]

Revelation 18:24 KJV And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Jesus said the guilt for all the blood shed on the earth was to be put upon Jerusalem.

Matthew 23:35 KJV That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

And Jesus said that a prophet, whose blood was found in the harlot, cannot be shed except in Jerusalem.

Luke 13:33 KJV Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

So, how was the prophet's blood found in the harlot Babylon, if Babylon was not Jerusalem, if Jesus said no prophet should be slain outside Jerusalem?