Babylon in Revelations

[tbpew]

dig,
you know I have the utmost respect for your approach and demeanor involving discussion of scripture.

Somehow this particular topic feels like we are riding two different rails through the same station. We can see each other, but we did not start at the same point and imagine different destinations.

I connect the Great Whore, with Mystery Babylon, the mother of Harlots.

My view of the scriptures we call the NT is that they testify of principles involving INVISIBLE things; things that have their reality in that which is ABOVE the earthly realm; the spiritual realm.

As such, I have never been big on looking to Rome or to Jerusalem or even to the US as being Mystery Babylon, The Mother of Harlots. This seduction transcends any one earthly kingdom or power.

So, I have tried to explain that I was out to consider that a "universal seductress" may be manifested in the earth's economies; these engines are the means for humankind to acquire wealth as a means to power. When this idea is peppered with the plain witness that "the love of money is the ROOT OF ALL EVIL", it seems to get some traction in my pondering.

I tossed that idea out in my first post. I bumped into something that you feel is a principle being ignored (things can not be 92% applicable). I have 0% problem agreeing with you on this hermeneutical requirement.

As one setting out to further chart an unknown river, I think it would be impossible to outline the whole trip to recruit other explorers.

If you already possess a 100% applicable "great whore" (I feel so funny writing that line), please catch me up.

PS: Dig, I am going to need you to connect the dots with your cite:
Luk 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the [day] following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

If every prophet MUST PERISH inside of Jerusalem, please share the principle for me that is established in the law. I need your help in supply of some of your thinking here.

[TJJJ]

Originally Posted by tbpew

dig,
you know I have the utmost respect for your approach and demeanor involving discussion of scripture.

Somehow this particular topic feels like we are riding two different rails through the same station. We can see each other, but we did not start at the same point and imagine different destinations.

I have never been big on Rome or Jerusalem or even the US being Mystery Babylon, The Mother of Harlots.

I connect the Great Whore, with Mystery Babylon, the mother of Harlots.

My view of the scriptures we call the NT is that they testify of principles involving INVISIBLE things; things that have their reality in that which is ABOVE the earthly realm; the spiritual realm.

As such, I have never been big on looking to Rome or to Jerusalem or even to the US as being Mystery Babylon, The Mother of Harlots. This seduction transcends any one earthly kingdom or power.

So, I have tried to explain that I was out to consider that a "universal seductress" may be manifested in the earth's economies; these engines are the means for humankind to acquire wealth as a means to power. When this idea is peppered with the plain witness that "the love of money is the ROOT OF ALL EVIL", it seems to get some traction in my pondering.

I tossed that idea out in my first post. I bumped into something that you feel is a principle being ignored (things can not be 92% applicable). I have 0% problem agreeing with you on this hermenutical requirement.

As one setting out to further explore an unknown river, I think it would be impossible to outline the whole trip to recruit other sojourners.

If you have already possess a 100% applicable "great whore", please catch me up.

PS: Dig, I am going to need you to connect the dots with your cite:
Luk 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the [day] following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

If every prophet MUST PERISH inside of Jerusalem, please share the principle for me that is established in the law. I need your help in supply of some your thinking here.

TBPEW

I will also allow Diggin to make his own reply, but you raise a very interesting point, one of which I have considered before myself.

One of the problems that I have with total and absolute preterism is that, it seems to be, in one way, similar to Futurism, in that they both seem to be extremes. I have brought up to others the idea of a principal or spirit of Babylon, one that reoccurs throughout time. If we take and apply that as a principal theory then it does change things a bit.

I don't know, it is interesting though and one that I have personally looked at for some time!

TJJJ

[Michael The Disciple]

No way it is Jerusalem. In the first century when it fell (again) the merchants of the Earth spent no time wailing and mourning. It was nothing economically compared to Rome. Neither did its judgment come in one hour. It was beseiged over time.

In this century Jerusalem would not survive more than a few weeks without the assistance of the USA. There is no comparison whatever between the economic might of America and Israel.

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by tbpew

So, I have tried to explain that I was out to consider that a "universal seductress" may be manifested in the earth's economies; these engines are the means for humankind to acquire wealth as a means to power. When this idea is peppered with the plain witness that "the love of money is the ROOT OF ALL EVIL", it seems to get some traction in my pondering.

Yes sir. I can certainly agree with this thought. The scriptural admonition that the love of money is the root of all evil is, indeed, a universal one that continues for as long as mankind breathes air on this earth.

The scriptures being discussed in the Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ would, most certainly, be the result of said tendency within the nature of man. That love of money, hence power, would be the base and driving force that led that great whore etc to her place of total and complete apostasy.

PS: Dig, I am going to need you to connect the dots with your cite:
Luk 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the [day] following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

If every prophet MUST PERISH inside of Jerusalem, please share the principle for me that is established in the law. I need your help in supply of some of your thinking here.

The basic thought that I have trying to get someone to address is this.

1. It is said in the Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ that the great harlot (or whatever other names that city is known by) is guilty of the blood of the prophets.

2. Jesus said of Jerusalem...

Luk 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the [day] following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.
Luk 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen [doth gather] her brood under [her] wings, and ye would not!
Luk 13:35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until [the time] come when ye shall say, Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

The Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ also said that great city would be made desolate.

These things do not, of their own accord, make Jerusalem the undeniable lone candidate but they would seem to, most certainly, make that great city a worthy candidate for careful consideration.

The identity of this great city had already been shared in Revelation 11.

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

The city would sit on seven mountains.
Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

Jerusalem sits on Mt. Goath, Mt. Gareb, Mt. Acra, Mt. Bezetha, Mt. Zion, Mt. Ophel, and Mt. Moriah.

There may very well be some overflowing universal application that we see played over and over again as man continues to fall for the love of money that comes so naturally but these scriptures seem, to me, to speak to a very real city have a very literal application.

I don't deny, in the least, the universal application that you speak of. But I do not feel that any universal application would be so sans any specific and tangible interpretation. Especially in the face of such a growing cloud of witnesses.

[mfblume]

Revelation 18:24 KJV And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Jesus said the guilt for all the blood shed on the earth was to be put upon Jerusalem.

Matthew 23:35 KJV That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

And Jesus said that a prophet, whose blood was found in the harlot, cannot be shed except in Jerusalem.

Luke 13:33 KJV Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

So, how was the prophet's blood found in the harlot Babylon, if Babylon was not Jerusalem, if Jesus said no prophet should be slain outside Jerusalem?