Cosmetics???

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

The ESV is the version I routinely use, that's why I pulled it from there.

I think, from the surrounding context.... oil of myrrh, perfumes, etc.... we can safely assume that they gave her the products, whatever they were, that were routinely used in those days. It seems she went through an extensive "beauty" program.

Thank you. I see I won't be using ESV as a major reading source. I came back to edit this as it sounds a bit harsh. What I'm wanting to say is that taking away the beauty and deeper meaning of "purification" to "cosmetics" is something I would not be happy with in a Bible translation.

As I said the idea of purification lends its meaning to "scouring". The only conclusion we can draw, which would be correct, is that the word "cosmetic" in the ESV would be on the same lines as toiletries. That would be items used in personal grooming.

I think it would be a stretch to the context to say it implies facial paint in any way, JMO.

[coadie]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Thank you. I see I won't be using ESV as a major reading source. I came back to edit this as it sounds a bit harsh. What I'm want to say is that taking away the beauty and deeper meaning of "purification" to "cosmetics" is something I would be happy with in a Bible translation.

As I said the idea of purification lends its meaning to "scouring". The only conclusion we can draw, which would be correct, is that the word "cosmetic" in the ESV would be on the same lines as toiletries. That would be items used in personal grooming.

I think it would be a stretch to the context to say it implies facial paint in any way, JMO.

I can see it. They are using our culture as a frame of reference to interpret scripture.

I inserted this and noticed Esther was incredibly attractive to begin with. That means they did NOT need to do three coats of laquer. Over a primer base. Beauty was a selection criteria on the front end. I even checked and it did not indicatee Vashti was painted up either.

A lot of this cosmetic stuff comes from the world. a man considers himself more manly if he walks around with painted up arm candy. the problem is age. They have a midlife crises and keep chasing younger arm candy like they first married. again it is vanity and pride centered theme. If she has kids and doesn't lose the weight, the relationship based on carnal visual criteria deteriates rapidly. Of course that is what they insist happens when asked during marriage counseling.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by coadie

I can see it. They are using our culture as a frame of reference to interpret scripture.

I inserted this and noticed Esther was incredibly attractive to begin with. That means they did NOT need to do three coats of laquer. Over a primer base. Beauty was a selection criteria on the front end. I even checked and it did not indicatee Vashti was painted up either.

A lot of this cosmetic stuff comes from the world. a man considers himself more manly if he walks around with painted up arm candy. the problem is age. They have a midlife crises and keep chasing younger arm candy like they first married. again it is vanity and pride centered theme. If she has kids and doesn't lose the weight, the relationship based on carnal visual criteria deteriates rapidly. Of course that is what they insist happens when asked during marriage counseling.

Can you provide your information on Vashti? I'd be interested in that.

I don't doubt the carnal world pulling on us. I can agree with you there. You should read a book called "The Spin Sisters". Myrna Blyth, the author and former Editor of, I believe, Good Housekeeping, writes about how the women of the media put fear in us, how covers of magazines are written to make us fear. It's a very subtle tactic.

Anyway, aside from all of that, I still will have to maintain that TRFrance is correct that we must, if we are serious about Bible interpretation, not include our opinions or convictions in the mix.

[coadie]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Can you provide your information on Vashti? I'd be interested in that.

I don't doubt the carnal world pulling on us. I can agree with you there. You should read a book called "The Spin Sisters". Myrna Blyth, the author and former Editor of, I believe, Good Housekeeping, writes about how the women of the media put fear in us, how covers of magazines are written to make us fear. It's a very subtle tactic.

Anyway, aside from all of that, I still will have to maintain that TRFrance is correct that we must, if we are serious about Bible interpretation, not include our opinions or convictions in the mix.

I am not saying this sarcastically. I read the first chapters KJV before reference to Esther.
Vashti didn't obey the kings legitimate pride and fondness for her and wanting the people to see her.
I do understand fear. One of the reasons i left counseling years ago. large amounts of fears are based on lies. It is sometimes impossible for people to see a lie as such. An example. I have a counseling peer. a pentecostal that was told by her kid bro about her rear sticking out. for the next 24 years, she actually replayed that fear every time she walked past a mirror.
i don't have a problem discussing fears. Fear of rejection is a monster in the sale of cosmetics. Men don't have fear of growing character lines. One of my employees tells me he looks in the mirror and says "lookin good" to himself. Many women are mortified. Teen girls are afraid the pimple on their niose is large enough to trip on.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by coadie

I am not saying this sarcastically. I read the first chapters KJV before reference to Esther.
Vashti didn't obey the kings legitimate pride and fondness for her and wanting the people to see her.

I've heard this interpretation and I'm not sure this is anything solid to stand on, but from verse 8 in Esther 1 - 8"And the drinking was according to the law; none did compel: for so the king had appointed to all the officers of his house, that they should do according to every man's pleasure."

and verse 10 "On the seventh day, when the heart of the king was merry with wine,..."

the implication is that the king wanted her to appear naked before them.

Jamieson, Fausset & Brown: Esther 1:10-12 - On the seventh day, when the heart of the king was merry with wine--As the feast days advanced, the drinking was more freely indulged in, so that the close was usually marked by great excesses of revelry.

he commanded . . . the seven chamberlains--These were the eunuchs who had charge of the royal harem. The refusal of Vashti to obey an order which required her to make an indecent exposure of herself before a company of drunken revellers, was becoming both the modesty of her sex and her rank as queen; for, according to Persian customs, the queen, even more than the wives of other men, was secluded from the public gaze. Had not the king's blood been heated with wine, or his reason overpowered by force of offended pride, he would have perceived that his own honor, as well as hers, was consulted by her dignified conduct.

Either way, the verses don't prove she was wearing or not wearing cosmetics, IMO.