You Be The Judge: Anderson Vs Burk

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Every eye will see Him on that day?

Can you explain that scripture?

Is the scripture speaking of a physical humaniod coming down on a cloud?

How will every eye see?

I was once told it would be television.

Brother Jason please explain how every eye would see Him on that day.

Blessings and peace

Your friend

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimejournal.com

Brother , I don't know how every eye will see Him, and all I can do is speculate. I seriously doubt it is TV. If the Lord wants every one to see Him, he doesn't need Fox News to help. But my point is specifically that SOMEBODY will undoubtedly see Him. Futurism affirms this, FP denies it.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Hi brother,

Let me offer my opinion. On this issue, I agree with fp's. SEEING is used in the bible as understanding many times, though not all. But it is there. The eye is referred to in Eph 1 as being our understanding as well. If the bible did not use those terms in this manner, we could not believe such. But it does use those terms as such.

Ephesians 1:18 KJV The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Even Jesus used the EYE to represent the MIND here:

Matthew 6:22-25 KJV The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. (23) But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness! (24) No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. (25) Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

Jesus begins to speak of taking proper THOUGHT after speaking about the EYE and LIGHT. the eye is as Paul said -- the MIND in such instances.

In other words, everyone would UNDERSTAND CLEARLY That what Jesus said about His coming occurred and He was right. The temple WAS destroyed stone by stone. The abomination DID occur. Jesus was right!

When people simply take it at surface value and think in our century's way of thinking, where the EYE is not an idiom for the MIND, they miss these nuances that can only be explained by learning idioms from the Hebrew culture. Such is the case with EYE and SEE.

The exact same Greek word translated "SEE" is used here:

Matthew 27:4 KJV+ Saying,G3004 I have sinnedG264 in that I have betrayedG3860 the innocentG121 blood.G129 AndG1161 theyG3588 said,G2036 WhatG5101 is that toG4314 us?G2248 seeG3700 thouG4771 to that.

Matthew 27:24 KJV+ WhenG1161 PilateG4091 sawG1492 thatG3754 he could prevailG5623 nothing,G3762 butG235 that ratherG3123 a tumultG2351 was made,G1096 he tookG2983 water,G5204 and washedG633 his handsG5495 beforeG561 theG3588 multitude,G3793 saying,G3004 I amG1510 innocentG121 ofG575 theG3588 bloodG129 of thisG5127 just person:G1342 seeG3700 yeG5210 to it.

John 3:36 KJV+ He that believethG4100 onG1519 theG3588 SonG5207 hathG2192 everlastingG166 life:G2222 andG1161 he that believethG544 not theG3588 SonG5207 shall notG3756 seeG3700 life;G2222 butG235 theG3588 wrathG3709 of GodG2316 abidethG3306 onG1909 him.G846

Acts 18:15 KJV+ ButG1161 ifG1487 it beG2076 a questionG2213 ofG4012 wordsG3056 andG2532 names,G3686 andG2532 of(G2596) yourG5209 law,G3551 lookG3700 yeG846 to it; forG1063 IG1473 willG1014 beG1511 noG3756 judgeG2923 of suchG5130 matters.

Have you "seen" the light?

Bump for Jason.

What do you say about the above?

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

Jason and HSMF, you both are ignoring the fundamentals surrounding the resurrection teachings of Hymenaeus and Philetus.

Here are the facts:

1. Paul warned of the “Hymenaean Heresy” in his letter second epistle to Timothy.
2. That letter was written while Paul was imprisoned under Emperor Nero mid AD60’s.
3. Paul was beheaded by Nero sometime after in the mid AD60’s.
4. Therefore, Hymenaeus and Philetus taught their heresy before the AD70 judgment of Jerusalem.
5. The Bible has the “time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation,” occurring at the same time as “many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake” (see Dan 12:1-2, 7; Mat 24:21; Mark 13:19; Luke 21:23-24).
6. That “time of trouble” spoke of the AD70 judgment of Jerusalem.
7. This places the resurrection of the OT saints occurring at the same time as the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, which is what AFP teaches.
8. The “Hymenaean Heresy” predated AD70 and therefore could not have been considered as being a “past” event at the time of Paul’s letter to Timothy.
9. This means the timing and circumstances of the resurrection taught by Hymenaeus and Philetus is not the same as is found in Daniel 12 or as is found in AFP.
10. As a result, no one can honestly align the resurrection taught by Hymenaeus and Philetus with that found in AFP.

I hope this helps you see this more clearly…..

Bro. Epley has already had the above explained to him dozens of times. Of course his extensive notes are in storage and without them he evidently cannot remember.

TK, do you not believe the Bible is inspired? Why would that be in the inspired writing that are profitible for teaching, reproof and correction, if it were going to be irrelevant within just a few years. And so for the next 2000 years we read about the danger of preaching the ressurection as past, but really its not a danger since it is all fulfilled. Why would it even be in the canon? And then taken with all of the other scriptures, 1 Cor 15, 1 Thess 4, etc.

I understand what you are doing, your trying to distance your teaching from what Paul warned against, and I don't blame you. Who would want to admit they hold a doctrine that the Apsotle Paul specificall warned against and condemned. However, even though the spin job you have done is admirable, it is nonetheless still a spin job.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Jason

And so for the next 2000 years we read about the danger of preaching the ressurection as past, but really its not a danger since it is all fulfilled.

Brother Jason, Hymenaeus and Philetus were prior to 70 A.D. did you know that? Or do you believe the writings of Paul to the Evangelist Timothy were after 70 AD?

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Jason

TK, do you not believe the Bible is inspired? Why would that be in the inspired writing that are profitible for teaching, reproof and correction, if it were going to be irrelevant within just a few years. And so for the next 2000 years we read about the danger of preaching the ressurection as past, but really its not a danger since it is all fulfilled. Why would it even be in the canon? And then taken with all of the other scriptures, 1 Cor 15, 1 Thess 4, etc.

I understand what you are doing, your trying to distance your teaching from what Paul warned against, and I don't blame you. Who would want to admit they hold a doctrine that the Apsotle Paul specificall warned against and condemned. However, even though the spin job you have done is admirable, it is nonetheless still a spin job.

Jason, your logic is very flawed. Every evidence used to prove the validity of Jesus was in the form of fulfilled prophecies. None of these then became irrelevant. Jason, are you reading what is answered you or even thinking through your own answers?

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Brother Jason, Hymenaeus and Philetus were prior to 70 A.D. did you know that? Or do you believe the writings of Paul to the Evangelist Timothy were after 70 AD?

I knew that. That's what I'm saying, what is the point of teaching against those who teach the ressurection is past, and it being inspired scripture if within only a few years (5-20yrs depending on the dating of the letter) that scripture would become irrelevant (after 70AD). To me it doesn't make sense.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

Jason, your logic is very flawed. Every evidence used to prove the validity of Jesus was in the form of fulfilled prophecies. None of these then became irrelevant. Jason, are you reading what is answered you or even thinking through your own answers?

Bro. Burk, I'm not against fulfilled prophecy. I understand many prophecies in the Bible were fulfilled, especially old testament prophecies. My contention is that there is yet some prophecy to be fulfilled, and among those is the rapture/ressurrection.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

Very good comparison Bro. Blume!!

This is interesting. I think really that if we as apostolics would allow room for diagreement as we all study together there would not be the need for knee jerk reations and kicking everyone out. How much better it is for bretheren to dwell in unity. And let us endeaver to keep the unity of the spirit UNTIL we come into the unity of the faith. All division does is make it harder to reach the world.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

Oh, that is a good one, but these are a bit plainer and tell of Jesus' coming happening within the generation of His listeners...

Mat 24:34
(34) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mat 16:28
(28) Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Mat 23:36
(36) Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Mar 13:30
(30) Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Luk 11:50
(50) That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

Luk 21:32
(32) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

Rev 1:1
(1) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Rev 1:3
(3) Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Rev 1:19
(19) Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Rev 4:1
(1) After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter.

Rev 22:6
(6) And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to show unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

Rev 22:10
(10) And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

TK, I commend you on this one. It is a good post and scripture rich without all the pre-written article stuff. And a strong point, I give you that, it is very plain language in some scriptures.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

HSMF, you didn't explain where the verses I gave say anything other than what they do, which is that Jesus said He would return within His First Century generation.

Concerning your above questions, you better hope they've come to pass. If they have not, then this next verse is a real problem…

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

If “all” has not yet been “fulfilled,” do you then teach the 613 commandments are still necessary?

ALL was fulfilled at the cross. The LAw was completed in Jesus Christ because was was sinless unto death. Ephesians, Colossians, and Hebrews all teach the law ending at the cross. Are you going at it from the angle that the law and atonement wasn't complete until 70AD?