The Second Coming of Christ

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by afp1996

My conclusion: We both agree that 70 AD was the Judgment of God. This puts you in the position to explain why Jesus connects this 70 AD Judgment with His Coming. Mat 23:29-39, Mat 10:15-23

Correct.

Originally Posted by Jason

First, several events happen when Christ comes back-among those is the rapture (ressurrection) of both the living saints and the dead.

Originally Posted by afp1996

First. Of the passages you used to prove a rapture, two show the resurrection of the dead, one is within a vision and needs to be understood by prophetic language, and the last, if used as you do, is out of chronological order according to your doctrine. You have Matthew 24:29-31 speaking of a Coming 2000 years after Matthew 24:37-38. This is a clear gap in the chapter. You must: 1) Prove the Gap exists, 2) Show what verses are the 70 AD Judgment and what verses are the Coming of the Lord, and 3) Show us systematically how you have come to this conclusion. Your use of the scripture and your position is disjointed.

What vision? These passages clearly teach there will be a rapture, and that will be at the last trumpet. Instead of dismissing the scriptures please tell us when those who were alive were changed from mortals to immortals, and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. If the second coming of Christ has happened, there should be evidence of this event being past tense.
1Corinthians 15:51-53
1Thessalonians 4:17

I believe there is a gap between the 69th and 70th weeks. That is not the subject here, maybe in the future.

Originally Posted by Jason

Second, Jesus isn't coming back alone.
Jude 14
Revelation 19:11-14
Psalms 50:3-5
1Thessalonians 1:7

Originally Posted by afp1996

Second. No AFP believes He did. Actually Mat 16:27-28 states Jesus would return with his Fathers' angels, and that this would happen before some of the people listening to him that day were even dead. He did just that, returned in Judgment not alone. Clearly a reference to His Second Coming.

Can you PROVE that Jesus came back with his angels? Who witnessed that?
Secondly, what do you do with the scriptures that teach he is coming back with his saints also? Just ignore them?

Originally Posted by Jason

Third,the scripture distinguishes the first coming of Christ from the second:
Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Acts 1:9-11

Originally Posted by afp1996

Third. You are pulling this scripture out of its context. Paul is contrasting the Levitical High Priesthood which had to offer sin offerings every year and itself was sinful verses Jesus who offered only once for all, and not for himself. The picture here is the enterence into the Holy of Holies with the blood and the exit of the Holy of Holies with atonement. Otherwise the scripture would be saying that Jesus was sinful the first time he came and not the second.

No one is debating if Jesus was sinful. The point is Jesus appeared when He was here the first time and will be appearent when he comes again. Acts 1:9-11 also backs this up.

Originally Posted by Jason

Fourth, scripture uses the language of a phyiscal and visible coming.
Fifth, in addition physical features and a physical location is given for the place of His coming and ensuing battle.

Originally Posted by afp1996

Forth and Fifth. The first three verses you quoted are impossible today unless you hold the Jews of all of history as guilty of the wrongful death of Jesus Christ our Lord. The fourth verse when correctly aligned with Luke 23:27-31 and your other scripture Rev 19:19 show Jesus talking to the women following him on the way to the cross. This points again to the Coming of 70 AD. No gap.

I disagree with your conclusions, but since you affirm that Jesus did come back in 70AD, please tell us when Zechariah 12:10 and Zechariah 13:6 happened. Revelation 19 deals with the armies that made war against Jesus and his armies. How did this hapen in 70AD? The Romans came to destroy the Jews, no mention of fighting against Jesus or even his saints, since the Christians had fled. I would also like other scriptures explained that you ignorned, but I'll wait for your explanation of these before moving on to the others.

Originally Posted by Jason

Sixth, at the time of Christ's return, He will take ruling dominion away from man (in the literal sense), and transfer it to Himself and His saints.

Originally Posted by afp1996

Sixth. Jesus never came or will come to set up a physical Kingdom on this earth. All your scriptures must be aligned with these too for your doctrine to be correct. What you posit would be the opposite of the Word of God. Please reconcile your physical Kingdom with these to scriptures:
Joh 18:36, Rom 14:17, and 1Co 15:50.

The kingdom of God is presently a spritual kingdom. We don't fight this battle with bombs and guns. We fight it in prayer and obedience. But there is coming a time when the Kingdoms of this world will be overthrown by Christ. It is at that time (Armageddon) that He/we will fight.

Please explain how we are now living in the new earth, since all has been fulfilled. Again, I would like you to address the others passages I mentioned, but I will wait for your PROOF we are now living in the new earth.

Originally Posted by Jason

Seveth, the Devil will be bound from decieving the nations and there will war anymore.
Revelation 20:1-3
Isaiah 2:4
Micah 4:3

Originally Posted by afp1996

Seventh. The cross defeated Satan. He has no dominion over the nations anymore. Demonic dominion must come by individuals. If you understood the story of Namaan and the reason he wanted soil from Israel you would understand a little more what I mean. Also Jesus never came or will come to make peace on the earth. Jesus made this clear. Mat 10:34-36. This passage: Isaiah 2:1-4 can be understood by Bishop James' words here: Acts 15:15-17 as can Micah 2 with Romans 11.

I guess I don't understand. Was Syrian soil demonic? This is terrible hermunetics. The devil is bound by the blood of Jesus in a Christians life. To say Satan isn't decieving the nations is incredible.

How is Isaiah 2:4 understood by Acts 15?
Since all scripture is fulfilled, please PROVE when this has ever been the case:
"nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more." Isaiah 2:4

Satan's activity in our present world, and the full preterist view that Satan has no further punishment coming from God, the earth goes on and on forever in its present state is perhaps the biggest case AGAINST full preterism. When Jesus comes back He will literally bind Satan, and Jesus will rule, and accomplish what man never could, peace on earth, not one war during his reign.

Please go further into detail on this, explaining how Revelation 20:1-3 has already happened. And how Satan can be so active from a bottomless pit.

Originally Posted by Jason

Eighth, Jesus is coming back in defense of Israel, not destruction of

Originally Posted by afp1996

Eighth. Daniel 9:24-27 clearly laid out that as a nation, God gave Israel one more chance. They had 490 years to complete the six points of that passage which would end with their Temple and City's destruction. No verse of prophetic scripture even remotely assumes the position of a future where God embraces Israel any other way but by His Church after that time. You cannot make the scripture say what you want it to. Any other view puts a gap in the 70 weeks of Daniel. If you posit that gap also please show where that is found in the text?

Again you ignored the scriptures, let me simplify it for you. How did God fight against the nations who came against Jerusalem as Zechariah 12:9 describes?

Originally Posted by Jason

Ninth, the Bible warns against teaching these things as past

Originally Posted by afp1996

Ninth. Those scriptures when written, were yet to be fulfilled. Your logic fails. The Judaism uses the same type of logic in reference to Messiah. Jesus did not fit their idea of the Messiah, and Fulfilled Eschatology does not fit yours. Romans 8:24-25

Your claims of failed logic equal to nothing. The scriptures remain for anyone to read in plain language.

Originally Posted by afp1996

In closing of my first response, Your cut and paste application of Matthew 24 does not show that the Judgment Coming of Christ was just that, the Judgement of the Lord. The time texts and the statements of Jesus and his Apostles postulates a 70 AD Coming.

In closing, I will say that I think you bring up a good question concerning Matthew 10:23. However, your argument is downhill from there. I do not feel that you even came close to explaining how many of the points I made were in error. I listed plenty of scripture, and have in the first response tried to narrow it down to even more specific scriptures so that you can PROVE to us how they have been fulfilled. If your position is correct, this should be easy to do.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Jason

Correct.


What vision? These passages clearly teach there will be a rapture, and that will be at the last trumpet. Instead of dismissing the scriptures please tell us when those who were alive were changed from mortals to immortals, and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. If the second coming of Christ has happened, there should be evidence of this event being past tense.
1Corinthians 15:51-53
1Thessalonians 4:17

I believe there is a gap between the 69th and 70th weeks. That is not the subject here, maybe in the future.


Can you PROVE that Jesus came back with his angels? Who witnessed that?
Secondly, what do you do with the scriptures that teach he is coming back with his saints also? Just ignore them?



No one is debating if Jesus was sinful. The point is Jesus appeared when He was here the first time and will be appearent when he comes again. Acts 1:9-11 also backs this up.


I disagree with your conclusions, but since you affirm that Jesus did come back in 70AD, please tell us when Zechariah 12:10 and Zechariah 13:6 happened. Revelation 19 deals with the armies that made war against Jesus and his armies. How did this hapen in 70AD? The Romans came to destroy the Jews, no mention of fighting against Jesus or even his saints, since the Christians had fled. I would also like other scriptures explained that you ignorned, but I'll wait for your explanation of these before moving on to the others.


The kingdom of God is presently a spritual kingdom. We don't fight this battle with bombs and guns. We fight it in prayer and obedience. But there is coming a time when the Kingdoms of this world will be overthrown by Christ. It is at that time (Armageddon) that He/we will fight.

Please explain how we are now living in the new earth, since all has been fulfilled. Again, I would like you to address the others passages I mentioned, but I will wait for your PROOF we are now living in the new earth.


I guess I don't understand. Was Syrian soil demonic? This is terrible hermunetics. The devil is bound by the blood of Jesus in a Christians life. To say Satan isn't decieving the nations is incredible.

How is Isaiah 2:4 understood by Acts 15?
Since all scripture is fulfilled, please PROVE when this has ever been the case:
"nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more." Isaiah 2:4

Satan's activity in our present world, and the full preterist view that Satan has no further punishment coming from God, the earth goes on and on forever in its present state is perhaps the biggest case AGAINST full preterism. When Jesus comes back He will literally bind Satan, and Jesus will rule, and accomplish what man never could, peace on earth, not one war during his reign.

Please go further into detail on this, explaining how Revelation 20:1-3 has already happened. And how Satan can be so active from a bottomless pit.



Again you ignored the scriptures, let me simplify it for you. How did God fight against the nations who came against Jerusalem as Zechariah 12:9 describes?

Your claims of failed logic equal to nothing. The scriptures remain for anyone to read in plain language.


In closing, I will say that I think you bring up a good question concerning Matthew 10:23. However, your argument is downhill from there. I do not feel that you even came close to explaining how many of the points I made were in error. I listed plenty of scripture, and have in the first response tried to narrow it down to even more specific scriptures so that you can PROVE to us how they have been fulfilled. If your position is correct, this should be easy to do.

Word count: 647

1. Debater 1 makes opening statement AFP
2. Debater 2 responds Jason
3. Response from Debater 1 AFP
4. Response from Debater 2 Jason
5. Response from Debater 1 AFP responds next
6. Response from Debater 2

After Jason responds last we go into the Question and Answer

[afp1996]

Okay. Playtime is over.

Matthew 23:29-39 lays the foundation for Matthew 24. For your doctrine to work:

Originally Posted by afp1996
My conclusion: We both agree that 70 AD was the Judgment of God. This puts you in the position to explain why Jesus connects this 70 AD Judgment with His Coming. Mat 23:29-39, Mat 10:15-23

Originally Posted by afp1996
You have Matthew 24:29-31 speaking of a Coming 2000 years after Matthew 24:37-38. This is a clear gap in the chapter. You must: 1) Prove the Gap exists, 2) Show what verses are the 70 AD Judgment and what verses are the Coming of the Lord, and 3) Show us systematically how you have come to this conclusion.

You have yet to prove there is a gap in Matthew 24.

Mat 24:37-38
(37) But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
(38) For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

If this is a rapture then you have a problem. This scripture states that the Coming of the Lord was like the days of Noah. During the judgment in Noah's day it was the wicked that were removed from the earth not the righteous. So it was at the Coming of the Lord. The wicked were removed not the righteous.

Mat 24:29-31
(29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
(30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
(31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This is the reason that I quoted this in the beginning:

Originally Posted by afp1996
To determine when the Coming was/will be, let's define what a Coming is, biblically. Pay careful attention to text, context, and intent of the author.

Isa 13:1, 4, 10-11, 19-20
(1) The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see.

(4) The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the LORD of hosts mustereth the host of the battle.

(10) For the stars of heaven... constellations...shall not give their light: the sun shall be ...darkened ... the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
(11) And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

(19) And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
(20) It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.

This is a prophecy against Babylon. Context shows the Coming of the Lord in judgment on Babylon. Intent of the author, to foretell the overthrow of Babylon. This is a biblical Coming of the Lord. Babylon did experience the presence of our Lord.

This scripture is clearly speaking of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, yet it uses the same exact type of language that is used in my original quote. You have already agreed that my original quote was a Judgment of God. I have shown above that this is a direct reference to the Coming of Jesus and that Jesus used the same language. To refute the plain language of these passages you will have to prove that the same language means completely different things between the two. You have no biblical reason to substantiate this. Please show how your doctrine can be correct with such plain language usage. If sun, moon, and stars stop shinning when the Babylonian Empire was destroyed, then they could also do the same when Jerusalem was. You will have to show how my original quote has not happened yet for your view of Matthew 24 to be credible.

Please show us your GAP.

Originally Posted by Jason
Third,the scripture distinguishes the first coming of Christ from the second:
Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Acts 1:9-11

You cannot prove a physical Coming of Jesus with Acts 1:9-11. It states the “same Jesus” would return “in like manner” as the “same Jesus” “went”. The manner that Jesus left their sight was not in a physical body. The manner which he was taken from their sight was by the Cloud that took him out of their sight.

Hebrews is talking about the High Priestly duty of Jesus. You are missing the whole point of that scripture when you place Acts 1:9-11 with it and try to prove a physical body by that. That is not good enough.

I disagree with your conclusions, but since you affirm that Jesus did come back in 70AD, please tell us when Zechariah 12:10 and Zechariah 13:6 happened. Revelation 19 deals with the armies that made war against Jesus and his armies. How did this hapen in 70AD? The Romans came to destroy the Jews, no mention of fighting against Jesus or even his saints, since the Christians had fled. I would also like other scriptures explained that you ignorned, but I'll wait for your explanation of these before moving on to the others.

Zec. 12:10. Look at these verses: Acts Rev. 11:13 are two examples as is Rev 1:7, Acts 2:23, 40. Clear references to the 70 AD Coming. A Coming you have yet to prove did not take place as Jesus said it would.

Zec. 13, Peter stated this passage by Joel 2 were fulfilled in his generation please read Acts 2. Peter even goes so far as to say that he was living in the Last Days. What Peter taught on the Day of Pentecost is exactly what AFP teaches. Your futurism has changed the clear message. Prove that you, not Peter are living in the Last Days.


Jesus came to save the remnant of Israel in 70 AD. That remnant was in the Church. They were saved and left, and the wicked were removed. Your doctrine is on one side of Matthew 24 and the Word of God is on the other.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by afp1996

Okay. Playtime is over.

Matthew 23:29-39 lays the foundation for Matthew 24. For your doctrine to work:



You have yet to prove there is a gap in Matthew 24.

Mat 24:37-38
(37) But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
(38) For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

If this is a rapture then you have a problem. This scripture states that the Coming of the Lord was like the days of Noah. During the judgment in Noah's day it was the wicked that were removed from the earth not the righteous. So it was at the Coming of the Lord. The wicked were removed not the righteous.

Mat 24:29-31
(29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
(30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
(31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This is the reason that I quoted this in the beginning:



This scripture is clearly speaking of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, yet it uses the same exact type of language that is used in my original quote. You have already agreed that my original quote was a Judgment of God. I have shown above that this is a direct reference to the Coming of Jesus and that Jesus used the same language. To refute the plain language of these passages you will have to prove that the same language means completely different things between the two. You have no biblical reason to substantiate this. Please show how your doctrine can be correct with such plain language usage. If sun, moon, and stars stop shinning when the Babylonian Empire was destroyed, then they could also do the same when Jerusalem was. You will have to show how my original quote has not happened yet for your view of Matthew 24 to be credible.

Please show us your GAP.



You cannot prove a physical Coming of Jesus with Acts 1:9-11. It states the “same Jesus” would return “in like manner” as the “same Jesus” “went”. The manner that Jesus left their sight was not in a physical body. The manner which he was taken from their sight was by the Cloud that took him out of their sight.

Hebrews is talking about the High Priestly duty of Jesus. You are missing the whole point of that scripture when you place Acts 1:9-11 with it and try to prove a physical body by that. That is not good enough.



Zec. 12:10. Look at these verses: Acts Rev. 11:13 are two examples as is Rev 1:7, Acts 2:23, 40. Clear references to the 70 AD Coming. A Coming you have yet to prove did not take place as Jesus said it would.

Zec. 13, Peter stated this passage by Joel 2 were fulfilled in his generation please read Acts 2. Peter even goes so far as to say that he was living in the Last Days. What Peter taught on the Day of Pentecost is exactly what AFP teaches. Your futurism has changed the clear message. Prove that you, not Peter are living in the Last Days.


Jesus came to save the remnant of Israel in 70 AD. That remnant was in the Church. They were saved and left, and the wicked were removed. Your doctrine is on one side of Matthew 24 and the Word of God is on the other.

Word Count: 675

Don't post until I count the word count and direct the next response.

Remember the opinion of your opponent is not as important as the others reading this. So choose your words carefully. If you just blow off an answer or it appears that way, that will not look good either.

1. Debater 1 makes opening statement AFP
2. Debater 2 responds Jason
3. Response from Debater 1 AFP
4. Response from Debater 2 Jason
5. Response from Debater 1 AFP
   
6. Response from Debater 2 Jason responds next

After Jason's response we will have question and answer.

Each person asks one question, the other answers.

Then we have concluding remarks with no word limit where you can say whatever you want, in one post