Do you believe the innocent party in a situation

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

PO, you are just wrong. There ARE divorces in which one person is innocent and the other is guilty. And that's all there is to it. MANY people choose to sin all on their own, through no fault of anyone else around them, or their "environment." IF someone else contributed, especially knowingly, they should ask God to forgive them, but a failure, whether its the sin of lying or the sin of adultery does not indicate anyone else's guilt except for the person who made the choice.

I think that's the part of your posts I'm really objecting to. It seems like you're saying there can never be an innocent party, that if there's a problem, both parties must have contributed, and I really, vehemently disagree.

The presence of a fall doesn't necessarily point to someone pushing. IF a person pushes another over a ledge, especially on purpose--well, I agree--they have something to repent of. But otherwise, the person jumped on their own.

Abigail,
Again, I have focused on the passage speaking of "defrauding".

The scriptures I posted, which are not mere dialogue , support that premise very well. They all point to someone who has occasioned a weak person to fall into temptation and to fail. God is not happy with that.

I NEVER one time said that there is not an innocent party in some cases. As you think that I believe there is no innocent party, I am getting the impression you do not believe the scriptures say that a person can cause another to fall and fail.

The party that sinned must answer for his deed. The party that caused his weak brother/sister to fall and fail must also answer for his/her part. BOTH have sinned and are wrong.

If you believe that there are times we have an innocent party and that there are also times you have a person who causes a weak man/woman to fall and fail, then we are good and on the same page.

If not, then I suggest you follow my example and support what you are saying with the Word of God. I do much better with scripture than I do with pontificating. Are we having fun, yet? LOL!

[MrMasterMind]

Actually the tact that some are taking in the end negates the very concept of free moral will and makes God a liar when He said nothing more would be placed on you than you would be able to bear.

No, I would never want have to answer to God for deliberately being a stumblingblock, but even so my blame would not be able to be used for their justification when they are facing God's Throne of Judgment

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by MrMasterMind

Actually the tact that some are taking in the end negates the very concept of free moral will and makes God a liar when He said nothing more would be placed on you than you would be able to bear.

No, I would never want have to answer to God for deliberately being a stumblingblock, but even so my blame would not be able to be used for their justification when they are facing God's Throne of Judgment

1 Corinthians 8:12 "But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ."

The Word of God says this man has sinned for wounding this brother's weak conscience. Will he answer for this?

[MrMasterMind]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

1 Corinthians 8:12 "But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ."

The Word of God says this man has sinned for wounding this brother's weak conscience. Will he answer for this?

Of course he will, but is he who sinned absolved because his brother helped him to stumble? Of course not.

Yes we should do all we can to exhort and build up our brother/sister, and nowhere is that more important than in marriage. But ultimately the one who stumbles is still responsible for themselves. Else God is a liar and has placed more on them than they were able to bear.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by MrMasterMind

Of course he will, but is he who sinned absolved because his brother helped him to stumble? Of course not.

Yes we should do all we can to exhort and build up our brother/sister, and nowhere is that more important than in marriage. But ultimately the one who stumbles is still responsible for themselves. Else God is a liar and has placed more on them than they were able to bear.

Of course the one that stumbles is responsible for himself. Yes, I agree! We are all accountable individually for our choices and actions.

What I have been getting, from the conversation here, is that the one that helped his brother to sin is absolved by the brother that actually performed the sinned. Or that it is NOT possible to help or cause your weak partner or brother/sister to fail and fall. That, IMO, contradicts the scriptures that I have put forth.

What I have been saying all along is that BOTH have sinned. If we all agree on that, then we have no argument.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

What I have been getting, from the conversation here, is that the one that helped his brother to sin is absolved by the brother that actually performed the sinned. .

No one has said that. No one. We've said repeatedly that you can cause your brother TO BE TEMPTED. And that you are wrong and guilty for THAT.

But THEY are responsible for their actual sin.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by MrMasterMind

Actually the tact that some are taking in the end negates the very concept of free moral will and makes God a liar when He said nothing more would be placed on you than you would be able to bear.

No, I would never want have to answer to God for deliberately being a stumblingblock, but even so my blame would not be able to be used for their justification when they are facing God's Throne of Judgment

Exactly the point I've been trying to make.


LOL - Have we circled this tree enough times yet??

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

This statement I completely agree with.

I also think it's noteworthy that the verses say 'cause to stumble', or 'occasion to fall' not 'cause to fall'. There's a difference between stumbling and falling.

'Cause to stumble' or 'occasion to fall'... that's temptation. We absolutely can be responsible for causing someone to be tempted.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I'm sorry, but the Word absolutely says we can cause a person to fail and to fall - to be ruined.

Stumble:

H3782
כּשׁל
kâshal
kaw-shal'
A primitive root; to totter or waver (through weakness of the legs, especially the ankle); by implication to falter, stumble, faint or fall: - bereave [from the margin], cast down, be decayed, (cause to) fail, (cause, make to) fall (down, -ing), feeble, be (the) ruin (-ed, of), (be) overthrown, (cause to) stumble, X utterly, be weak.

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

No one has said that. No one. We've said repeatedly that you can cause your brother TO BE TEMPTED. And that you are wrong and guilty for THAT.

But THEY are responsible for their actual sin.

By causing him/her to be tempted, you have also caused them to stumble/fall. I don't see any difference.

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

No one has said that. No one. We've said repeatedly that you can cause your brother TO BE TEMPTED. And that you are wrong and guilty for THAT.

But THEY are responsible for their actual sin.

Exactly!

One is guilty for causing the temptation and the other is guilty of the sin.

Is it a sin to cause someone to be tempted? If we use the scriptures PO has posted they say that it can be - they are guilty of that. However, the person that commits adultery has sinned on their own.

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by MrMasterMind

Actually the tact that some are taking in the end negates the very concept of free moral will and makes God a liar when He said nothing more would be placed on you than you would be able to bear.

No, I would never want have to answer to God for deliberately being a stumblingblock, but even so my blame would not be able to be used for their justification when they are facing God's Throne of Judgment

I agree with this completely!

That's the part that I cannot accept.