Unfortunately, people in strong "standards" churches are not usually allowed to do that. It doesn't matter what God says to them, it only matters what the rules of the church are. That is what you will do, period. And your kids will do that, too, even if it's not your own family's conviction.
At the risk of being labeled a liberal, I must agree. In the strong outward standards preaching churches, thinking is verboten. And when you force force force a kid to line up to a bunch of arbitrary rules... when they get old... they WILL depart from it.
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My kids went to a youth conference recently.... a huge building FULL of youth. Three sermons - three sermons about standards. No joke. That is ALL that was preached. Splits, short sleeves, short skirts, nail polish..... yadda yadda yadda. I was so frustrated I could have cried. A whole building full of youth, in a very precarious time of their lives, and you can't use this time to truly draw them closer to the heart of God?
Now that is a crying shame.
For one, though I have no problem with the standard standards, it is the PASTOR'S job to teach, and even he needs to do that with wisdom and gentle leading, not with a pulpit hammer. And not based on his personal likes or dislikes of red clothes and etc...Not the job of a conference preacher.
And we wonder why so many do grow up and bail from the movement the minute they can.
There is a difference between having (and even preaching) standards of morality, character, behavior and modesty, and just plain legalistic bombardment.
Seen too many places where a man of God can preach about the victory we have in Jesus and the power of the cross and people sit like moss on a log. Then the first time someone mentions television or lipstick they shake the walls...
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Last edited by John Atkinson; 06-17-2009 at 09:09 AM.
At the risk of being labeled a liberal, I must agree. In the strong outward standards preaching churches, thinking is verboten. And when you force force force a kid to line up to a bunch of arbitrary rules... when they get old... they WILL depart from it.
This is so true that it just brought tears to my eyes.
I was just thinking about this yesterday... my kids have NO problem - or at least no resentment - over rules that my husband and I set for them. They may disagree with us, but they respect us and know that we love them and have their best interests at heart. We have a good relationship with them, and they don't resent us even if they disagree.
But the things that we don't allow them to do just because it's a 'church rule'. THOSE things they resent, strongly. And they start equating church with God, and yes, it starts turning their hearts away from God.
This is killing me right now, and I have to find answers!
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Now that is a crying shame.
For one, though I have no problem with the standard standards, it is the PASTOR'S job to teach, and even he needs to do that with wisdom and gentle leading, not with a pulpit hammer. Not the job of a conference preacher.
And we wonder why so many do grow up and bail from the movement the minute they can.
There is a difference between having standards of morality, character, behavior and modesty, and just plain legalistic bombardment.
Seen too many places where a man of God can preach about the victory we have in Jesus and the power of the cross and people sit like moss on a stump. Then the first time someone mentions television or lipstich they shake the walls...
Amen! You want to get a crowd on their feet screaming, just start preaching standards. Or preach a "gotcha" style message. People love it when other people are being nailed.
Preach about love, having character, giving to the poor... you can hear a pin drop sometimes.
This is so true that it just brought tears to my eyes.
I was just thinking about this yesterday... my kids have NO problem - or at least no resentment - over rules that my husband and I set for them. They may disagree with us, but they respect us and know that we love them and have their best interests at heart. We have a good relationship with them, and they don't resent us even if they disagree.
But the things that we don't allow them to do just because it's a 'church rule'. THOSE things they resent, strongly. And they start equating church with God, and yes, it starts turning their hearts away from God.
This is killing me right now, and I have to find answers!
Amen! You want to get a crowd on their feet screaming, just start preaching standards. Or preach a "gotcha" style message. People love it when other people are being nailed.
Preach about love, having character, giving to the poor... you can hear a pin drop sometimes.
This is perhaps the single biggest reason I still have strong resentment to many things in the church I was in as a teen. My parents were mere proxies for the pastor. HIS will was done in our house. My parents were more concerned with my lining up with the rest of the kids in order for them to look good (and thus just as saved) as the rest of the perfect church-going, pew-sitting, black suit wearing head of the household, families.
And yes, when I became old enough to vote, I DID depart from it!
As far as your second part goes, I also agree. I've often said that any church standards (if taught) should be taught in private. When screamed over the pulpit, it becomes a situation where most people in the audience know who is NOT following the rules and many who are feel all the more saved as a result. Smug alert!
At the risk of being labeled a liberal, I must agree. In the strong outward standards preaching churches, thinking is verboten. And when you force force force a kid to line up to a bunch of arbitrary rules... when they get old... they WILL depart from it.
Now that is a crying shame.
For one, though I have no problem with the standard standards, it is the PASTOR'S job to teach, and even he needs to do that with wisdom and gentle leading, not with a pulpit hammer. Not the job of a conference preacher.
And we wonder why so many do grow up and bail from the movement the minute they can.
There is a difference between having (and even preaching) standards of morality, character, behavior and modesty, and just plain legalistic bombardment.
Seen too many places where a man of God can preach about the victory we have in Jesus and the power of the cross and people sit like moss on a log. Then the first time someone mentions television or lipstick they shake the walls...
I believe, Sis. Falla is saying that if we as mature believers will seek and study that the Holy Spirit will teach us what we should do about "standards".
And with Him as guide there is no need for us to be "fussing" with one another about standards. She is not trying to impose her standards, on anyone else, only challenging each of us to turn to God and to follow Him.
John, I disagree that it is the pastor's job to teach folks how to dress, if he will teach folks to seek after God, as Falla has encouraged, the Spirit and the word will set the standards. And you were agreeing with her point.
Sis. Falla can correct me if I have missed her point.
__________________ For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God. (Romans 14:11- NASB)
I believe, Sis. Falla is saying that if we as mature believers will seek and study that the Holy Spirit will teach us what we should do about "standards".
And with Him as guide there is no need for us to be "fussing" with one another about standards. She is not trying to impose her standards, on anyone else, only challenging each of us to turn to God and to follow Him.
John, I disagree that it is the pastor's job to teach folks how to dress, if he will teach folks to seek after God, as Falla has encouraged, the Spirit and the word will set the standards. And you were agreeing with her point.
Sis. Falla can correct me if I have missed her point.
Bro. My exact words were standards of morality, character, behavior and modesty.
I did amend my post to say "not the pastor's personal likes and dislikes concerning red clothes and etc."
I was agreeing with her point. We have this misunderstand each other thing going. I will try and be more clear.
Bro. My exact words were standards of morality, character, behavior and modesty.
I did amend my post to say "not the pastor's personal likes and dislikes concerning red clothes and etc."
I was agreeing with her point. We have this misunderstand each other thing going. I will try and be more clear.
Actually, I was using your post as a take off for my post, I could see that you were agreeing. I believe we are in agreement in most of our positions.
__________________ For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God. (Romans 14:11- NASB)
There is a difference between having (and even preaching) standards of morality, character, behavior and modesty, and just plain legalistic bombardment.
I wanted to share a thought I had when I read the above Bro. Atkinson. My thought was along these lines...
Do preachers preach standards because it's easy to preach standards?
I mean, in the bully pulpit you're going to get raving Amens and shouting. I used to when I preached. If I wanted to rile the crowd up I knew all I had to do is go down a road and bash television or gay people for about five minutes. Standards and "hot button" topics were sure winners. I knew that the majority in the building were UPCI. This means that they better support the idea of no television... and if they had televisions (and some did and I know it) they shouted too because they didn't want to look like sinners. I knew that most likely there were very few homosexuals in the house, so I could bash away and get "Amen brother!"s until the cows came home. Standards were an easy thing to preach. Here's another good example, a good friend of mine preached from Matthew 7... here was his text....
Matthew 7:24-27
24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
He read it with that slow and deliberate preacher's draw we all learned so well from the elder... and then he opened with this statement...
"I still believe that it's wrong to own a television. And I still believe it's wrong for a woman to wear pants!"
He preached about television for nearly a half hour.... and the house was filled with screaming and shouting with the preacher (he never went back and touched women's pants though). He said he wanted to set a standard and show us a rock we could build our houses upon. From a homiletic perspective, he did great. He had a great delivery, it kept our attention, and it was well structured... even better, people came to the altar. I don't doubt that his motives were sincere.
But... there is a BIG problem with the sermon. Notice the text... Jesus said,
Matthew 7:24
24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Our preacher friend never told the congregation that this was the closing of a three chapter sermon delivered by Jesus known as the Sermon on the Mount. He never touched on a single thing Jesus had just preached about. When Jesus says, "whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them" he's talking about what he'd been teaching in the previous three chapters. Notice the subjects Jesus addresses...
The Beatitudes
being poor in spirit,
those who mourn,
the meek,
those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
the merciful,
the pure in heart,
the peacemakers,
those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
when people insult you and persecute you
Being Salt and Light
The Fulfillment of the Law
Murder & Slander
Adultery
Divorce
Oaths
An Eye for an Eye
Love for Enemies
Giving to the Needy
Prayer
Fasting
Treasures in Heaven
Do Not Worry
Judging Others
Ask, Seek, Knock
The Narrow and Wide Gates
A Tree and Its Fruit
Our brother (one who is now in the WWPF) was railing about television and how the church (he meant UPCI) is compromising for nearly a half hour... and never once touched single thing Christ said. The people walked away knowing the organization's position on television... but they didn't walk away knowing what Christ taught. Again, Jesus said,
Matthew 7:24
24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
You can't build your house on a rock by doing the things Jesus taught us to do unless someone teaches the things Jesus actually taught. Instead... the preacher opted to bash television. It was an easy sermon. I assure you... if he would have gone into the Sermon on the Mount (honestly it deserves a series not one sermon) it would have been dead. By the time he got to what Jesus taught about lust and loving your enemies people would be trickling out to the bathrooms and texting in the lobby.
So I wonder...
Do so many preach traditional standards because standards are easier to preach than the actual Word of God???
Hybrid Mode
