The Times...They are a-Changin'

[rgcraig]

I think it's time WE get out of the way and let God do it HIS way!!

[tbpew]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

I think it's time WE get out of the way and let God do it HIS way!!

and I think the dynamic of doing this will require that we settle if really believe that God is building his own house that we can find shelter in; OR men are actually building God's house for him.

You can rebut my statement with "God is using us to build his own house" but I would counter with a view that says, "we have not entered into his rest if we are building God's habitation".

If I find a great retreat cabin in the woods by a lake and I guide other people to what I have found....I am not the builder or maker of the refuge.

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by tbpew

and I think the dynamic of doing this will require that we settle if really believe that God is building his own house that we can find shelter in; OR men are actually building God's house for him.

You can rebut my statement with "God is using us to build his own house" but I would counter with a view that says, "we have not entered into his rest if we are building God's habitation".

If I find a great retreat cabin in the woods by a lake and I guide other people to what I have found....I am not the builder or maker of the refuge.

I couldn't agree with you more!!

God can't get done what he needs done because we keep trying to do it for him.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

Does the scripture say to "object" or is it whether you take the word and run with it personally. Remember that Paul also said that things are to be done decently and in order.



consider the scenario, Pastor George teaches something, but parishioner Greg disagrees so he "corrects", but Granny Smith who has been in church for 332 years is going to set both straight...where does it end and who is right.

There is a difference between discussion and correction and doing it in an orderly way.

If you have no level of authority then there is going to be total confusion, plus without clearly defined levels of authority then wolves can more easily come in.

We had a lady who came in a few weeks back that claimed to have a healing ministry. Said everyone she works with gets healed. Come to find out she was a hypnotist. Her "correction" would be very different than the ones who lead the church. Sad to say, some were initially swayed and was going to subject themselves to it, but because they had respect for the pastorate they were kept on course.

I didn't mention doing things disorderly.

It seems to me from reading those scriptures that a group of men would lead, and if one of the men got way off base, the other men would be there to provide balance.

I didn't mean someone should speak up right then.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

You are totally wrong on that because I am at the top end of that generation. It's the times that we are living in and the spirit that is at work in this generation.

But hey...that's par for the course....just be not deceived because God is not mocked. Whatsoever a man soweth that shall he also receive...this generation is sowing more to the flesh and they will see major destruction, it's Bible

Gloryseeker, you're words certainly don't sound very loving. They sound sharp and condemnatory.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

Does the scripture say to "object" or is it whether you take the word and run with it personally. Remember that Paul also said that things are to be done decently and in order.

consider the scenario, Pastor George teaches something, but parishioner Greg disagrees so he "corrects", but Granny Smith who has been in church for 332 years is going to set both straight...where does it end and who is right.

There is a difference between discussion and correction and doing it in an orderly way.

If you have no level of authority then there is going to be total confusion, plus without clearly defined levels of authority then wolves can more easily come in.

Good points. Paul resolved that. Paul wrote,

I Corinthians 14:29-33 (NIV)
29Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.

What Paul is saying is that two (or three) elders should be the primary teachers guiding the meeting. The others should listen to their teaching and weigh carefully what is being taught. Not to judge or correct it... but to weigh it carefully so as to heed what's being taught and apply it to their lives. Yes, if they have an additional insight or a question, they are free to share it. However, the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. The two (or three) elders have the final say on all matters of teaching.

We had a lady who came in a few weeks back that claimed to have a healing ministry. Said everyone she works with gets healed. Come to find out she was a hypnotist. Her "correction" would be very different than the ones who lead the church. Sad to say, some were initially swayed and was going to subject themselves to it, but because they had respect for the pastorate they were kept on course.

This reminds me of another verse indicating how church was done in the first century...

2 John 1:10
If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

The three elders in a house church are charged to quickly dismiss anyone who is teaching error. A pastor can run into trouble if he tells a person to leave a meeting open to the public. However, if I'm having a gathering of believers in my living room and one introduces false teaching, I'm free to try to correct an honest error, or i can stand and invite them to leave immediately if they have an agenda.

[OnTheFritz]

Originally Posted by Aquila

People like him hate our generation and see nothing good in us.. and there are too many like him. That's why so many of us are choosing not to sit under their bully pulpits.

Yes. And I realize I probably over-reacted to this whole thing, but it really drives me nuts. Trying to lighten up now....

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

I think it's very clear when you read the New Testament that our model is not based on the biblical model.

For instance, this part:


29Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said.

Who is weighing carefully what is said? Who is going to object if they weigh, and come up short? These days, no one is going to correct "the pastor" if they feel he is wrong. There is no one in the church to do so. Or as the KJV says - 'to judge'.

Or:

James 5:14 (English Standard Version)

14Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him,(A) anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.

Our New Modern Version would have to read: if anyone is sick, let him call the pastor.

The NT model seemed to be based upon a group of men who led the church. Not just one man.

Why do you think a pastor is the same thing as a prophet?

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Why do you think a pastor is the same thing as a prophet?

I don't, necessarily, but 'pastor' seems to be about the only role we have now. Other than traveling evangelists. Some churches will have other ministers who occasionally give a sermon, but in the churches I've been in they don't really have any authority.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

I don't, necessarily, but 'pastor' seems to be about the only role we have now. Other than traveling evangelists. Some churches will have other ministers who occasionally give a sermon, but in the churches I've been in they don't really have any authority.

Funny, I think there are too many folks running around calling themselves "Prophet" and "Prophetess".