Faith in Crisis -- New Thoughts on Acts 2 - Page 3

Praxeas · #21 07-06-2009, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrowingPains

Interesting Prax. So you believe after they've repented and have been baptized they are gifted with the Spirit?

I Believe that the gift is only given or available to those that have faith and have their sins forgiven.

Quote:

Question: the disciples of John that the Apostle met, where he asked "have you received the power since you believed" -- does this support the Holy Ghost as an empowerment to witness or that the disciples of John were not saved?

Have you received the Spirit since you believed?

Based on this verse alone I am not sure the first can be proven...ie the second work of grace theory

GrowingPains · #22 07-06-2009, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

There is no such quote tho.

Holy Ghost, not power. Sorry.

In another place in Acts "ye shall receive POWER after that which the HG is come upon you."

Prax responded to this. So far it sounds like the HG was a gift to the believers, to empower them to be witnesses in a very hostile time. The HG was never presented as a commandment or requisite for salvation... or was it?

Jermyn Davidson · #23 07-06-2009, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrowingPains

Can the HG be commanded for a person to get, when Christ said He gives it freely, with promise?
These are mysteries I don't clearly understand in all my years of Bible School.

This question is the EXACT reason why I may attend an Apostolic church, but not agree hook line and sinker with it doctrinally.

Repentance is a command.

Baptism is a command.

Both play a role in salvation-- typing it made me pause, but I don't know how else to interpret the clear teaching of the scriptures when it comes to water baptism.

But the baptism in the Holy Ghost is not a command, it is a Promise.

A Divine Promise, an awesome privilege for all Blood-Bought Believers that should be sought and coveted if for no other reason than God has made it available, this precious Gift of the Holy Ghost.

U376977 · #24 07-06-2009, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrowingPains

Today I read Acts 2, looking at the story for every nuance. What happened has rattled me. I'll explain:

In the NT time, baptism was a symbol of discipleship (I already knew this). When I read what happened in Acts, followed by a sermon from Peter, the response is "What do we do now?" NOTE: most seem to think this says "what must I do to be saved" which would change some of the mechanics of Acts 2:38. Instead of a point-by-point salvation plan, Peter replied to do 2 things for the forgiveness of sins: Repent and become a disciple of Christ (through the symbol of water baptism). Turning to Christ, our sins are remitted. He then said the Holy Spirit was promised thereafter, with no mention of tongues at this point. Now, I can't reconcile that many that received the baptism of the Holy Ghost, also spoke in tongues, so I'm not ready to go there just yet. But what it did do was rattle a passage I've known for years and now look at differently, finding that it matches the sayings of Jesus a lot better.

That day 3,000 were added to the church --- what happened? They became disciples of Christ through baptism!

I don't want to start a 3-step vs. 1-step debate (I'm a life long 3-stepper who now is stepping back on the rhetoric), but I surely would like to discuss Acts 2, and what you see in it. Is it a plan for salvation, or the Apostle's response on what they should do with the guilt they felt after that sermon? Can the HG be commanded for a person to get, when Christ said He gives it freely, with promise?

These are mysteries I don't clearly understand in all my years of Bible School.

Sounds as if Christ is trying to birth something within you. I would caution to be quiet before him and let it happen. I think many times we filter his voice thru our traditions and others who do not have a clue what he is trying to say to you to bring you into a closer discipleship. I would say...go back to that place where God was speaking to you from Ac 2 and listen. The voice of God can be heard thru people on this forum, and thru your old books, but if he is talking to you thru reading your Word....and helping you see thru a deeper light of revelation; then stay in that place.

GrowingPains · #25 07-06-2009, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by U376977

Sounds as if Christ is trying to birth something within you. I would caution to be quiet before him and let it happen. I think many times we filter his voice thru our traditions and others who do not have a clue what he is trying to say to you to bring you into a closer discipleship. I would say...go back to that place where God was speaking to you from Ac 2 and listen. The voice of God can be heard thru people on this forum, and thru your old books, but if he is talking to you thru reading your Word....and helping you see thru a deeper light of revelation; then stay in that place.

Thanks, U376977. Sometimes private thoughts are hysterics that help to be balanced by others. You're right though, the last several months has been a "talking session" with God. The result is, on here I'm slopping stuff out, and not worrying about dotting every "i" of some grand thesis, but rather testing, prodding, poking, prodding, and turning every idea upside down only to be resurrected with the agreement of Scripture.

Michael The Disciple · #26 07-06-2009, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

This question is the EXACT reason why I may attend an Apostolic church, but not agree hook line and sinker with it doctrinally.

Repentance is a command.

Baptism is a command.

Both play a role in salvation-- typing it made me pause, but I don't know how else to interpret the clear teaching of the scriptures when it comes to water baptism.

But the baptism in the Holy Ghost is not a command, it is a Promise.

A Divine Promise, an awesome privilege for all Blood-Bought Believers that should be sought and coveted if for no other reason than God has made it available, this precious Gift of the Holy Ghost.

You are forgetting one part of the Holy Ghost equasion.

38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

It is promised to all that the Lord CALLS. If one is called of God to be saved they will receive the Holy Ghost.

Praxeas · #27 07-06-2009, 07:10 PM

Plus Jesus said the Father would give the Holy Ghost to those that asked

GrowingPains · #28 07-06-2009, 10:40 PM

Talk about balanced shopping. Just bought Velvet Elvis along with the book Baptism In the First 5 Centuries by Everett Ferguson and Into The Name by Lars Hartman. July is dialed in.

Falla39 · #29 07-07-2009, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrowingPains

Today I read Acts 2, looking at the story for every nuance. What happened has rattled me. I'll explain:

In the NT time, baptism was a symbol of discipleship (I already knew this). When I read what happened in Acts, followed by a sermon from Peter, the response is "What do we do now?" NOTE: most seem to think this says "what must I do to be saved" which would change some of the mechanics of Acts 2:38. Instead of a point-by-point salvation plan, Peter replied to do 2 things for the forgiveness of sins: Repent and become a disciple of Christ (through the symbol of water baptism). Turning to Christ, our sins are remitted. He then said the Holy Spirit was promised thereafter, with no mention of tongues at this point. Now, I can't reconcile that many that received the baptism of the Holy Ghost, also spoke in tongues, so I'm not ready to go there just yet. But what it did do was rattle a passage I've known for years and now look at differently, finding that it matches the sayings of Jesus a lot better.

hat day 3,000 were added to the church --- what happened? They became disciples of Christ through baptism!
T
I don't want to start a 3-step vs. 1-step debate (I'm a life long 3-stepper who now is stepping back on the rhetoric), but I surely would like to discuss Acts 2, and what you see in it. Is it a plan for salvation, or the Apostle's response on what they should do with the guilt they felt after that sermon? Can the HG be commanded for a person to get, when Christ said He gives it freely, with promise?

These are mysteries I don't clearly understand in all my years of Bible School.

That day 3,000 were added to the church --- what happened? They became disciples of Christ through baptism! .

Back up a little further in Act 2. The first of the chapter.

1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

There's our part, the preacher's part and there is the part that only GOD
can do. And IN THE BEGINNING, GOD!!!! This would be a new beginning,
a new creation. Old things passing away. Behold ALL things would becoming
new. A New Will and Testament! God making a NEW Covenant with His People.

Jesus, in the 24th chapter of Luke, starting at the 44th verse and
read through the 49th verse. Then Jesus led them out as far as to Bethany.
That's as far as Jesus could take them as the SON. He ascended to SEND
back the Spirit (or promise of His Father) from on high. He had already told
his disciples IF he went not away, the Holy Ghost could not come. All the
fulness/Power was IN Jesus, but the Power/Spirit ascended on high to began
to pour down/out righteousness on all flesh, beginning at Jerusalem.

Jesus was given all the Power/Spirit in fulness while He walked on earth.
But submitted it all back to the Father when he had finished the work the
Father/Spirit had sent him to do, that God might be all in all.

satan didn't want to give God glory. He felt/desired he could be as the
Most High.
So he was kicked out of his position. GOD WILL NOT GIVE HIS GLORY TO
another.

Falla39

deltaguitar · #30 07-07-2009, 08:14 AM

The Holy Spirit is essential for salvation. Now, are tongues the evidence of the Holy Ghost? A lot of Apostolic doctrine hinges on tongues being the initial evidence. AOG and other Pentecostals consider a person to receive the Holy Ghost at new birth but that there is a second work called the Baptism of the Holy Ghost.

If speaking in tongues were the initial evidence of the Holy Ghost then why was this not mentioned anywhere in scripture. All we have are a few incidences where people spoke in tongues when they received and then speaking in tongues is not really mentioned any more.