Holiness and the Facebook Generation

[Papabear]

this whole exercise of waxing philosophical and thoughtful with the intent of subtracting what the bible says concerning those things that we have chosen to disavow is an approach we see the results all around us.

I am not afraid of Biblical study and digging deep into it as you like, as long as the intent is to strengthen what the text says, as opposed to dissect it to make it say what we want it to say.

This subtraction by addition is an approach to scripture that I believe is the original deception.

What is the reason for the question? to strengthen or devotion or find a reason not to obey what God and his word has said.

... but I know much to my sadness of heart... minds can not be changed when the heart is already cold....

If we followed the pattern of prayer and consecration in seeking God, this discussion would not even be necessary. But alas, we live in the days of great wisdom and deception... and often it is difficult to discern between the two.

[GrowingPains]

Originally Posted by Papabear

this whole exercise of waxing philosophical and thoughtful with the intent of subtracting what the bible says concerning those things that we have chosen to disavow is an approach we see the results all around us.

I am not afraid of Biblical study and digging deep into it as you like, as long as the intent is to strengthen what the text says, as opposed to dissect it to make it say what we want it to say.

This subtraction by addition is an approach to scripture that I believe is the original deception.

What is the reason for the question? to strengthen or devotion or find a reason not to obey what God and his word has said.

... but I know much to my sadness of heart... minds can not be changed when the heart is already cold....

If we followed the pattern of prayer and consecration in seeking God, this discussion would not even be necessary. But alas, we live in the days of great wisdom and deception... and often it is difficult to discern between the two.

Don't write my eulogy just yet!

The reason for the question is to simply know what is right. Others tend to immediately debate a person's motives as a red herring to the real issue. I don't want to dissect it to make it say what I want it to say, and I think that's part of my frustration: we have taken texts and interpreted to mean something it never intended.

Your responses will surely get this forum excited as you assume no one is prayerful, no one loves holiness and no one cares for the things of God but those who believe it exactly as you've been taught it.

[RandyWayne]

Originally Posted by GrowingPains

Don't write my eulogy just yet!

The reason for the question is to simply know what is right. Others tend to immediately debate a person's motives as a red herring to the real issue. I don't want to dissect it to make it say what I want it to say, and I think that's part of my frustration: we have taken texts and interpreted to mean something it never intended.

Your responses will surely get this forum excited as you assume no one is prayerful, no one loves holiness and no one cares for the things of God but those who believe it exactly as you've been taught it.

Bingo!

People, through tradition, have beliefs which then cause them to search out Scripture to support them.

I looked at Papabears web site, which is very well done and well written I might add! But it is clear to see the filter that he see's scripture through. For instance He see's love and grace as filtered THROUGH holiness and separation. Many (and this is the way I BELIEVE Jesus taught) see holiness and separation as filtered THROUGH love and grace (and compassion).

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by GrowingPains

Your responses will surely get this forum excited as you assume no one is prayerful, no one loves holiness and no one cares for the things of God but those who believe it exactly as you've been taught it.

Bingo!

[*AQuietPlace*]

In the Biblical culture, both male and female wore dresses (robes).

In our culture, both male and female wear pants.

Culture changes, always has and always will. Who knows what we'll all be wearing (or our descendants) in 500 years? Maybe everyone will be back to robes.

Cultural dress should not really be the issue. Femininity and masculinity should always be an issue. A man should look like a man, a woman should look like a woman. A woman in a pair of flowered capris and a ruffled shirt does not look remotely masculine. And yet she'd be doomed to hell by our rulebooks.

I challenge you to go to your local grocery store and see if you can within 2 seconds (per person) identify the sex of every person in that store. I'll be very surprised if you can't. If you can't, it's probably because there's someone in there who CHOSE deliberately to try to look like the opposite sex. THAT is what's a sin.

And the BIGGEST problem is that the generation that we're trying to lead to God is NOT going to understand our reasoning, for the most part. Yes, our ancestors 100 years ago viewed pants as only a man's garment. The people around us now, don't. They just think we're weird. And we have NO scripture that we can show them that says that women are forbidden to wear split-legged garments.

Was the scripture in Deut. saying that women couldn't wear robes? That's what men wore then.

[SeekingOne]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

In the Biblical culture, both male and female wore dresses (robes).

In our culture, both male and female wear pants.

Culture changes, always has and always will. Who knows what we'll all be wearing (or our descendants) in 500 years? Maybe everyone will be back to robes.

Cultural dress should not really be the issue. Femininity and masculinity should always be an issue. A man should look like a man, a woman should look like a woman. A woman in a pair of flowered capris and a ruffled shirt does not look remotely masculine. And yet she'd be doomed to hell by our rulebooks.

I challenge you to go to your local grocery store and see if you can within 2 seconds (per person) identify the sex of every person in that store. I'll be very surprised if you can't. If you can't, it's probably because there's someone in there who CHOSE deliberately to try to look like the opposite sex. THAT is what's a sin.

And the BIGGEST problem is that the generation that we're trying to lead to God is NOT going to understand our reasoning, for the most part. Yes, our ancestors 100 years ago viewed pants as only a man's garment. The people around us now, don't. They just think we're weird. And we have NO scripture that we can show them that says that women are forbidden to wear split-legged garments.

Was the scripture in Deut. saying that women couldn't wear robes? That's what men wore then.

Great post!

[ForeverBlessed]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

In the Biblical culture, both male and female wore dresses (robes).

In our culture, both male and female wear pants.

Culture changes, always has and always will. Who knows what we'll all be wearing (or our descendants) in 500 years? Maybe everyone will be back to robes.

Cultural dress should not really be the issue. Femininity and masculinity should always be an issue. A man should look like a man, a woman should look like a woman. A woman in a pair of flowered capris and a ruffled shirt does not look remotely masculine. And yet she'd be doomed to hell by our rulebooks.

I challenge you to go to your local grocery store and see if you can within 2 seconds (per person) identify the sex of every person in that store. I'll be very surprised if you can't. If you can't, it's probably because there's someone in there who CHOSE deliberately to try to look like the opposite sex. THAT is what's a sin.

And the BIGGEST problem is that the generation that we're trying to lead to God is NOT going to understand our reasoning, for the most part. Yes, our ancestors 100 years ago viewed pants as only a man's garment. The people around us now, don't. They just think we're weird. And we have NO scripture that we can show them that says that women are forbidden to wear split-legged garments.

Was the scripture in Deut. saying that women couldn't wear robes? That's what men wore then.

Good post, I agree with you.

Also, while looking for the gender distinction, one of the first things you notice is the hair... hair is a good distinction. (facial hair included)

Those who are trying be identified w/ the opposite sex will often display it w/hair and actions. My belief is a woman should have feminine hair... and most women choose to do this... it is a woman thing!

A man cross dressing will wear a long wig, makeup and skirt/dress because all those things are inclusive to a woman. An effeminate man will take on the actions of a woman and it is wrong. A soft/effeminate man gets on my nerves and we see way too much of it today.

A woman will have a butch hair cut and wear men's pants and masculine clothing... you can spot that too.

If people would just break the mindset of tradition and look around at the culture today... just follow their heart in true conviction of serving God... they will not look like the opposite sex, there will not be a gender distinction problem.

It is just as it was in the bible days... is distinction with colors/fabrics.... we are all just smart enough to know when the pants are women's and men's. I have some of the cutest capris... not a masculine man around would be found dead in them.

[SeekingOne]

Originally Posted by Papabear

What is the reason for the question? to strengthen or devotion or find a reason not to obey what God and his word has said.

... but I know much to my sadness of heart... minds can not be changed when the heart is already cold....

If we followed the pattern of prayer and consecration in seeking God, this discussion would not even be necessary. But alas, we live in the days of great wisdom and deception... and often it is difficult to discern between the two.

Papabear, you speak from your own very narrow perspective. I used to have my own very narrow perspective too, and I used to really believe that I loved and followed God more than 99% of the world, even more than you!

My mind changed and my heart grew warm toward God for the first time in years due to visiting this very forum! I was just pious and cold, I would not even allow myself to consider that I could follow God and leave "the standards." I came here hoping to find a new church to go to that had "the standards."

Wow, to actually read the Bible, without all the preconceived ideas that have been drilled into me, has breathed life into me and given me the opportunity to help change the world around me. The public is actually not afraid of me anymore! They don't think I am judging them, because I am NOT judging them anymore. I am not judging other Christians either, whatever made me think I had that right anyway?!

Now I go about our community with the love of Jesus, just like Jesus did. I do go to condemn the world, but to bring the love of Jesus into their lives. I will let God do the judging, it isn't my job. I let his light shine, and it shines so much brighter now that I don't have "holiness images" blocking the light.

Our family still dresses modestly, nothing too tight or short, but we dress in modern fashions. I must say, that my old friends wear more revealing clothing than I do, and they dress the "holiness standard" way. They also "deck themselves out" more than our family. We dress plainly, and do not draw attention to ourselves. Like Jesus, people don't recognize us by our clothing, but by our love.

I must make sure that you know that I am trying to say all of this with a lot of respect for you. But for God changing me, I was just like you a few months ago. I am not looking down my nose at you, anymore than I wish for you to look down your nose at me. I just felt you needed to be corrected in your statement about minds not being changed because hearts are cold. Just the opposite happened to me.

The truth has set me free to have a MUCH better relationship with God and also with the people HE wishes for me to reach for Him. Hallelujah!