Personally, I thought the 911 dispatcher was a bit terse.
__________________
"God, send me anywhere, only go with me. Lay any burden on me, only sustain me. And sever any tie in my heart except the tie that binds my heart to Yours."
--David Livingstone
"To see no being, not God’s or any, but you also go thither,
To see no possession but you may possess it—enjoying all without labor or purchase—
abstracting the feast, yet not abstracting one particle of it;…."
--Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass, Song of the Open Road
n david. I told myself I was going to stay out of this thread now.
Every time you try to walk away, we pull you back in! bwaaahhahaha Actually I like reading your posts. They're very well-written and give good information.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tstew
I've come to realize that with issues of race, it is easy to be misunderstood and misrepresented and that there are often deep emotions that few know about. I also know that most of what I would say is a waste of time because people tend to have their opinions set in stone already and there is usually very little room left for another perspective or for the notion that one person's reality may not be another's.
This is true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tstew
However, I will wade back in just a little. Trying to tie Affirmative Action into just slavery alone is a mistake. AA was designed to address very real and very institutionalized discrimination much, much, much more recently. What is sad to me that this was ever a necessity in our society. We can argue whether it is absolutely necessary today, but I don't think that anyone can argue that it wasn't necessary in the not-too-distant past.
I wasn't thinking of AA being tied with slavery. Moreso, I thought it tied to the civil rights struggle during the mid-1900s til now. I would agree that because of the mindset of that era, it was necessary to ensure opportunity for african americans in both the workplace and education.
Tstew, you could correct me at any time, from what I've heard and seen, while some could argue that educational opportunities are to a point where AA shouldn't be a factor, the workplace has yet to do the same. I would still say that AA based only on skin color is reverse racism, however I would agree that there are instances where a qualified black worker would need AA in order to get the same opportunity as a qualified white worker.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tstew
Now I'm really going to test the waters:
I recognize that there are many white people who now feel like the system is unfair to them because there is a small portion of some instituation and opportunities that may not be available to them. This is a good starting point for dialogue. Multiply that reality and sentiment by 100 and extrapolate it over decades and generations. That may give some insight into what fuels a lot of emotion.
I'd agree that the number of whites passed over in education or jobs because of AA is a small number. Does it still make it right to use AA based on color and not on qualifications?
I recognize that there are many white people who now feel like the system is unfair to them because there is a small portion of some instituation and opportunities that may not be available to them. This is a good starting point for dialogue. Multiply that reality and sentiment by 100 and extrapolate it over decades and generations. That may give some insight into what fuels a lot of emotion.
I recognize that there are many white people who now feel like the system is unfair to them because there is a small portion of some instituation and opportunities that may not be available to them. This is a good starting point for dialogue. Multiply that reality and sentiment by 100 and extrapolate it over decades and generations. That may give some insight into what fuels a lot of emotion. " tstew
tstew...thankyou for testing the waters!
This is just the tip of the iceberg tstew. My only hurdle now is age more than gender or race. I have worked in retail and with the public for 30 years. I have seen, not experienced, this rage, that's whats fuels it, upclose.
Some have delt with their emotions and hurts, anger, rage, concerning race issues. And they are better for it. Others just boast that they have,( rant on about Jesus this and that, talk the talk but not walk the walk), but when caught or tested, they fly off the handle.
I too, have nothing to do with the past of America. I have no family tree here on this soil until maybe the early 1900's. My dad's family came into the states via Canada, before that Ireland and England and Findland. My mom came straight from Germany in the 60's. But yet, I have felt the sting of hurt and indifference.
There is one question I would like to ask, if it's ok. Why are the black Americans wanting to be called African American? Were they born in Africa and became American citizens? If not, they are Americans. I could call myself European American, and that would be a true statement. My dad is a natural American Citizen, but my mom wasn't, I was born on a air force base in Germany. Moved here when I was 2 months old. But, I am just an American! And proud of it!
There are so many questions we all have, and need answers to. But are we ready now to listen?
__________________
Rom.8:38,39-For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither heigth nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to seperate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Every time you try to walk away, we pull you back in! bwaaahhahaha Actually I like reading your posts. They're very well-written and give good information.
This is true.
I wasn't thinking of AA being tied with slavery. Moreso, I thought it tied to the civil rights struggle during the mid-1900s til now. I would agree that because of the mindset of that era, it was necessary to ensure opportunity for african americans in both the workplace and education.
Tstew, you could correct me at any time, from what I've heard and seen, while some could argue that educational opportunities are to a point where AA shouldn't be a factor, the workplace has yet to do the same. I would still say that AA based only on skin color is reverse racism, however I would agree that there are instances where a qualified black worker would need AA in order to get the same opportunity as a qualified white worker.
I would agree that the need for AA is quite a bit less than it was when it was initially instituted. Like I said, to me the tragedy is that it was even necessary in the first place. I will point out that it seems easy for some to accept that the archaic mindset that creates a very real glass ceiling for women still exists, but not want to accept that it may still exist for black Americans. In my opinion the depth that the black community had to climb from to acieve equality was infinitely worse than where women had to...yet I think it would be foolish to think that sexism does not affect women at all.
As far as education goes, I kind of like an initiative that was being floated around in Florida a few years ago when I lived there. I'm not sure where they are with it now or if it is in effect. In a nutshell, the state was guaranteeing that all students who scored in a certain percentile would have the opportunity to go to college regardless of race. The numbers bore out that this would provide greater access for minorities than AA did.
I can tell you from my personal experience however, that in many places even high school guidance counselors work with minority students differently. I am appalled at some of what I have seen and heard. One of the things we do at our church is get involved in the education of our children and push them to excel.
Quote:
I'd agree that the number of whites passed over in education or jobs because of AA is a small number. Does it still make it right to use AA based on color and not on qualifications?
You ask if it is right to use AA based on color and not on qualification. My answer is no. The design of AA is to be based on color and qualification. I do not think that color is a substitute for qualification, and I also think it is insulting whenever people assume and infer that the recipient is not qualified. The issue that AA was designed to address was that qualified people were being denied because of their color...not that because of people's color they were not qualified. I don't think that anyone should be forced to hire anyone who is not qualified...and I also don't think that one would have to in order to hire a minority.
My point about the number or percentage of opportunities that AA denies white people of was to point out that in your frustration may lie the key to understanding how some feel in situations that are infinitely more restricting and demeaning.
__________________
There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, Chuck Norris lives in Houston.
Either the United States will destroy ignorance, or ignorance will destroy the United States. – W.E.B. DuBois
I recognize that there are many white people who now feel like the system is unfair to them because there is a small portion of some institution and opportunities that may not be available to them.
Wrong is wrong. Always.
Discrimination is wrong. Always.
Period.
Quote:
Multiply that reality and sentiment by 100 and extrapolate it over decades and generations. That may give some insight into what fuels a lot of emotion.
Why decades and generations? My life experiences are not defined by what happened to my parents or my grandparents or my great grandparents.
Why should we have to battle through generations of pent up anger while we have a black man in the White House.
At what point can we realize that we are moving on?
How long must we continue to pay for and make provision for the sins of a decade ago... a generation ago.. a century ago?
If there is discrimination in anyones life today then they should speak out and we should all do what it takes to bring that discrimination to an end.
But neither my feelings nor anyone elses should be based upon a decade ago, a generation ago or a century ago.
I recognize that there are many white people who now feel like the system is unfair to them because there is a small portion of some instituation and opportunities that may not be available to them. This is a good starting point for dialogue. Multiply that reality and sentiment by 100 and extrapolate it over decades and generations. That may give some insight into what fuels a lot of emotion. " tstew
tstew...thankyou for testing the waters!
This is just the tip of the iceberg tstew. My only hurdle now is age more than gender or race. I have worked in retail and with the public for 30 years. I have seen, not experienced, this rage, that's whats fuels it, upclose.
Some have delt with their emotions and hurts, anger, rage, concerning race issues. And they are better for it. Others just boast that they have,( rant on about Jesus this and that, talk the talk but not walk the walk), but when caught or tested, they fly off the handle.
I too, have nothing to do with the past of America. I have no family tree here on this soil until maybe the early 1900's. My dad's family came into the states via Canada, before that Ireland and England and Findland. My mom came straight from Germany in the 60's. But yet, I have felt the sting of hurt and indifference.
There is one question I would like to ask, if it's ok. Why are the black Americans wanting to be called African American? Were they born in Africa and became American citizens? If not, they are Americans. I could call myself European American, and that would be a true statement. My dad is a natural American Citizen, but my mom wasn't, I was born on a air force base in Germany. Moved here when I was 2 months old. But, I am just an American! And proud of it!
There are so many questions we all have, and need answers to. But are we ready now to listen?
Not all blacks actually want to be called African American. What generally happens is that a vocal few in our country have been allowed to speak for all. I blame the media in part because they always want the sensational person and point of view. Particularly in matters of race.
I'm sure for some, it is in response to the feeling that instead of giving up their heritage, they were stripped of it. I happen to know many Irish-American, Italian-American, Mexican-American, German-American, Jewish-American etc...who are very vocal and proud about their heritages. They call themselves that, they celebrate holidays from those countries, they hold festivals, they practice the customs and instill that identity in their children. One interesting thing of note is that in all the examples I just gave, I listed countries, unique countries with unique cultures.The fact that we say African-Americans (a continent) is a testament to the fact that the cultures and history of blacks in America have been stripped from us to the point that they do not exist. I think that for many this is about a. taking what was for so long a source of shame and pain and making it a source of pride similar to what many other people have in their heritage. b. I think that many people felt like by virtue of going to school, they knew a lot about other people's cultures and not their own.
When it comes to heritage I think that if it has never caused pain or problems it is easy to ignore (kind of like what you were saying). Where you are from has probably never had a great impact on your family. For blacks in America, our ethnicity has in itself been such a cause of problems and has affected and shaped our lives so much, it is difficult for many to just pretend that it doesn't exist.
__________________
There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, Chuck Norris lives in Houston.
Either the United States will destroy ignorance, or ignorance will destroy the United States. – W.E.B. DuBois
Wrong is wrong. Always.
Discrimination is wrong. Always.
Period.
Why decades and generations? My life experiences are not defined by what happened to my parents or my grandparents or my great grandparents.
D4T. I think you might want to rethink the position that what happens to your parents does not greatly affect your formative years. To a great extent, I am who I am because of my parents and I thank God for it.
Also, one consistent point I've made is that in dealing with particularly the older generation in the black community, you're not dealing with what happened to parents and grandparents, you're dealing with what happened to that individual.
Quote:
Why should we have to battle through generations of pent up anger while we have a black man in the White House.
At what point can we realize that we are moving on?
How long must we continue to pay for and make provision for the sins of a decade ago... a generation ago.. a century ago?
If there is discrimination in anyones life today then they should speak out and we should all do what it takes to bring that discrimination to an end.
But neither my feelings nor anyone elses should be based upon a decade ago, a generation ago or a century ago.
If your position is that what happens in one decade has no bearing on the next, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Are we moving on? Absolutely. I am very encouraged by the changes I see in every generation.
And people do speak out against discrimination. It does still occur, but thankfully it is getting better.
__________________
There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, Chuck Norris lives in Houston.
Either the United States will destroy ignorance, or ignorance will destroy the United States. – W.E.B. DuBois
Not all blacks actually want to be called African American. What generally happens is that a vocal few in our country have been allowed to speak for all. I blame the media in part because they always want the sensational person and point of view. Particularly in matters of race.
I'm sure for some, it is in response to the feeling that instead of giving up their heritage, they were stripped of it. I happen to know many Irish-American, Italian-American, Mexican-American, German-American, Jewish-American etc...who are very vocal and proud about their heritages. They call themselves that, they celebrate holidays from those countries, they hold festivals, they practice the customs and instill that identity in their children. One interesting thing of note is that in all the examples I just gave, I listed countries, unique countries with unique cultures.The fact that we say African-Americans (a continent) is a testament to the fact that the cultures and history of blacks in America have been stripped from us to the point that they do not exist. I think that for many this is about a. taking what was for so long a source of shame and pain and making it a source of pride similar to what many other people have in their heritage. b. I think that many people felt like by virtue of going to school, they knew a lot about other people's cultures and not their own.
When it comes to heritage I think that if it has never caused pain or problems it is easy to ignore (kind of like what you were saying). Where you are from has probably never had a great impact on your family. For blacks in America, our ethnicity has in itself been such a cause of problems and has affected and shaped our lives so much, it is difficult for many to just pretend that it doesn't exist.
I went back and added Jewish-American after I had already written this post. I know that Jewish is not a country, but it has started me on another train of thought. The Jewish people are perhaps some of the fiercest when it comes to maintaining their ethnic identity. I wonder if there may be a parallel in that they have suffered so much because of their ethnicity and have had so much stripped away that they feel a need to protect it.
__________________
There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, Chuck Norris lives in Houston.
Either the United States will destroy ignorance, or ignorance will destroy the United States. – W.E.B. DuBois
Actually I like reading your posts. They're very well-written and give good information.
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