Doctrinal Conference 2009 (Atlanta West)

[deltaguitar]

While it might seem like a good idea to invite other churches to "witness" to them be very cautious in opening up something that has been dormant for many years. You will find that these ministers from other denominations are usually more educated and have a better understanding of church history and doctrine than their UPC counterparts. They might end up changing you more than you change them. Remember, they basically pay no attention to the Oneness movement because their influence has been minimal. The Apostolics just can't compete in the arena of ideas. Most of the large UPC churches that I know of are very sneaky about what they actually believe and a person could possibly attend church there quite a while before they ever hear anything about three-step doctrine or any of the other doctrines that are central to the UPC.

I have predicted that we will see a major battle over doctrinal beliefs concerning salvation within the UPC in the next few years. A possible way for this to happen will be if the UPC starts teaching their true doctrine without trying to fool people as to what they really believe.

Additionally, Dr. Seagraves, though I have never met him I credit him in part for my leaving the Pentecostal/Apostolic movement. My sister was a student at CLC and sent me the audio for his Romans and Galatians class way back in 2001. Growing up my whole life in the UPC I had never heard what Dr. Seagraves was teaching and through that God started changing my heart and preparing me to leave the UPC though it would be six years later. According to people that I know who have gone to CLC, an overwhelming majority of the students that graduate from there usually either leave the three-step doctrine or leave the Apostolic movement all together.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

While it might seem like a good idea to invite other churches to "witness" to them be very cautious in opening up something that has been dormant for many years. You will find that these ministers from other denominations are usually more educated and have a better understanding of church history and doctrine than their UPC counterparts. They might end up changing you more than you change them. Remember, they basically pay no attention to the Oneness movement because their influence has been minimal. The Apostolics just can't compete in the arena of ideas. Most of the large UPC churches that I know of are very sneaky about what they actually believe and a person could possibly attend church there quite a while before they ever hear anything about three-step doctrine or any of the other doctrines that are central to the UPC.

I have predicted that we will see a major battle over doctrinal beliefs concerning salvation within the UPC in the next few years. A possible way for this to happen will be if the UPC starts teaching their true doctrine without trying to fool people as to what they really believe.

Additionally, Dr. Seagraves, though I have never met him I credit him in part for my leaving the Pentecostal/Apostolic movement. My sister was a student at CLC and sent me the audio for his Romans and Galatians class way back in 2001. Growing up my whole life in the UPC I had never heard what Dr. Seagraves was teaching and through that God started changing my heart and preparing me to leave the UPC though it would be six years later. According to people that I know who have gone to CLC, an overwhelming majority of the students that graduate from there usually either leave the three-step doctrine or leave the Apostolic movement all together.

When people start studying without the lens of "to prove what I already believe to be the total truth'' it is dangerous to tradition. There is a whole world of knowledge outside of the UPC that most within have no idea that exists, Dr. Seagraves is simply opening that door. It is scary outside the boundaries that we thought kept us safe, but it is very fulfilling to know that God is bigger and greater than the small walls in which we had been confined.

We should all pray "...to know Him as He really is!" Knowing that if we were to ever reach that goal completely in this life we would simply explode, like the mosquito that bit the guy that had been eating the hot sauce. lol

[ThePastorsCoach]

Originally Posted by crakjak

When people start studying without the lens of "to prove what I already believe to be the total truth'' it is dangerous to tradition. There is a whole world of knowledge outside of the UPC that most within have no idea that exists, Dr. Seagraves is simply opening that door. It is scary outside the boundaries that we thought kept us safe, but it is very fulfilling to know that God is bigger and greater than the small walls in which we had been confined.

We should all pray "...to know Him as He really is!" Knowing that if we were to ever reach that goal completely in this life we would simply explode, like the mosquito that bit the guy that had been eating the hot sauce. lol

I LIKE ALL THIS! SO TRUE! When people get tired of the double standards, hypocrisy, the "don't do as I do - just do as I say" attitude and start studying the Word for themselves and seeking God for fresh Revelation and loving people - their eyes will be opened too that there is a BIG NEW world out there they never dreamed of!

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

While it might seem like a good idea to invite other churches to "witness" to them be very cautious in opening up something that has been dormant for many years. You will find that these ministers from other denominations are usually more educated and have a better understanding of church history and doctrine than their UPC counterparts. They might end up changing you more than you change them. Remember, they basically pay no attention to the Oneness movement because their influence has been minimal. The Apostolics just can't compete in the arena of ideas. Most of the large UPC churches that I know of are very sneaky about what they actually believe and a person could possibly attend church there quite a while before they ever hear anything about three-step doctrine or any of the other doctrines that are central to the UPC.

I have predicted that we will see a major battle over doctrinal beliefs concerning salvation within the UPC in the next few years. A possible way for this to happen will be if the UPC starts teaching their true doctrine without trying to fool people as to what they really believe.

Additionally, Dr. Seagraves, though I have never met him I credit him in part for my leaving the Pentecostal/Apostolic movement. My sister was a student at CLC and sent me the audio for his Romans and Galatians class way back in 2001. Growing up my whole life in the UPC I had never heard what Dr. Seagraves was teaching and through that God started changing my heart and preparing me to leave the UPC though it would be six years later. According to people that I know who have gone to CLC, an overwhelming majority of the students that graduate from there usually either leave the three-step doctrine or leave the Apostolic movement all together.

I don't think Dr Segraves or Bernard will have a problem articulating what they believe if asked by educated ministers from other churches.

[deltaguitar]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

I don't think Dr Segraves or Bernard will have a problem articulating what they believe if asked by educated ministers from other churches.

I agree. But both of these men are very good at dancing around the heart of the issue. Neither Seagraves or Bernard would come out and and say that they believe three-step doctrine and the Oneness of the Godhead and outward holiness standards and Baptism of the Holy Ghost as a part of the New Birth experience. These men have tried very hard to sound orthodox in their positions while upholding the traditions of the Apostolic movement.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

I agree. But both of these men are very good at dancing around the heart of the issue. Neither Seagraves or Bernard would come out and and say that they believe three-step doctrine and the Oneness of the Godhead and outward holiness standards and Baptism of the Holy Ghost as a part of the New Birth experience. These men have tried very hard to sound orthodox in their positions while upholding the traditions of the Apostolic movement.

Do you mean they won't come out and condemn to hell anyone who hasn't obeyed Acts 2:38, or who hasn't walked in holiness by striving against sin, or who is a Trinitarian?

[deltaguitar]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Do you mean they won't come out and condemn to hell anyone who hasn't obeyed Acts 2:38, or who hasn't walked in holiness by striving against sin, or who is a Trinitarian?

It is more than that. These men don't seem to want to spell out their beliefs. The truth is that if they believe in the Water and Spirit doctrine and Acts 2:38 and Baptism with the evidence of tongues as essential to salvation then why not come out and say it. Why beat around the bush? This is what I mean by many moderate UPC churches are being a little sly by hiding what they really believe until they get folks into a side room bible study or class.

If a person really believes that you can't be saved without Acts 2:38 then why not preach it on TV and in the streets and anywhere that it can be taught. The truth is that you will rarely hear a UPC sermon that touches any of these ideas unless it is to a small body of believers.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Do you mean they won't come out and condemn to hell anyone who hasn't obeyed Acts 2:38, or who hasn't walked in holiness by striving against sin, or who is a Trinitarian?

I'd pretty much guarantee the first and last part of what you said:

"Do you mean they won't come out and condemn to hell anyone who hasn't obeyed Acts 2:38...or who is a Trinitarian"

The second part is rather subjective, as you yourself can attest. I would expect that they would stay in the bounds of generalities on that one.