JP looking our way

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Servetus

Most churches that drop "standards" end up with very little standards indeed.

What do you mean?

[Servetus]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

What do you mean?

Most churches that drop all "standards" end up being very similar to any average Christian denomination or average charismatic church. Basically over time there become no difference between them and the world-and not just the way they dress, but the way they live.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Servetus

Most churches that drop all "standards" end up being very similar to any average Christian denomination or average charismatic church. Basically over time there become no difference between them and the world-and not just the way they dress, but the way they live.

What do you mean by "the way they live"?

[Servetus]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

What do you mean by "the way they live"?

Basically that they have a Christianity not much different than an average baptist, methodist,etc. They still may have a little bit different doctrine or theology, but overall the commitment to Christ is gone. Frankly, they seem led of the flesh, not the spirit, and from I have seen are in bondage to the things of the flesh.

Now I'm not painting everyone with a broad brush, I know there are good people out there who don't necessarily "keep the standards", all I'm saying is that's a dangereous road. Many would have been much better off having never known, than to know and turn away.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Servetus

Basically that they have a Christianity not much different than an average baptist, methodist,etc. They still may have a little bit different doctrine or theology, but overall the commitment to Christ is gone. Frankly, they seem led of the flesh, not the spirit, and from I have seen are in bondage to the things of the flesh.

Now I'm not painting everyone with a broad brush, I know there are good people out there who don't necessarily "keep the standards", all I'm saying is that's a dangereous road. Many would have been much better off having never known, than to know and turn away.

My experience over years of ministry is that the divorce rate, rates of infidelity, homosexuality, child molestation and criminal activity is as high or higher among professed "Apostolics" and "conservative holiness" types than it is among "baptist, methodist,etc."

I was personally fired from my position in an "Apostolic church" as part of a plan to cover up the fact that a visiting evangelist was involved in adultery.

The man they hired to replace me with is currently sitting in a Texas state prison cell for crimes unrelated to any of that.

Tell me again about your "holiness" code. If you doubt my story - take it over to JP or CAF for verification.

[Servetus]

Originally Posted by pelathais

My experience over years of ministry is that the divorce rate, rates of infidelity, homosexuality, child molestation and criminal activity is as high or higher among professed "Apostolics" and "conservative holiness" types than it is among "baptist, methodist,etc."

I was personally fired from my position in an "Apostolic church" as part of a plan to cover up the fact that a visiting evangelist was involved in adultery.

The man they hired to replace me with is currently sitting in a Texas state prison cell for crimes unrelated to any of that.

Tell me again about your "holiness" code. If you doubt my story - take it over to JP or CAF for verification.

Pel, I don't doubt it at all. I think it's sad and sickening, and I'm sorry you had to go through it.

However, it seems that the leadership of that church was corrupt/backslid, and it spilled over to the people. You seem to have escaped.

However, the very same argument you are using against "holiness" (which I have said isn't holiness at all), can be used against those who don't believe in standards at all.

Jesus preached to Judas, Paul ministered with Demas. Because people backslide or become corrupt doesn't necessarily mean the doctrine they believe/believed was wrong.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Servetus

Pel, I don't doubt it at all. I think it's sad and sickening, and I'm sorry you had to go through it.

However, it seems that the leadership of that church was corrupt/backslid, and it spilled over to the people. You seem to have escaped.

However, the very same argument you are using against "holiness" (which I have said isn't holiness at all), can be used against those who don't believe in standards at all.

Jesus preached to Judas, Paul ministered with Demas. Because people backslide or become corrupt doesn't necessarily mean the doctrine they believe/believed was wrong.

That's a good point, and it brings us back to "doctrine." Are the customary dress codes among us "good doctrine?" When we find the apostles and even the OT saints living and dressing according to a different standard than ours (and I don't just mean style changes over the years) then shouldn't we be more open to reevaluating our creed?

And FWIW - those that you refer to as "backsliders" are still esteemed among us today - but I'm still the cast-off. I was literally the scapegoat that carried away their sins. Now, they get applause when they enter an Apostolic church service.