JP looking our way

[Servetus]

Originally Posted by tv1a

Would you ascertain that most churches do not drop standards, they tend to redefine standards which are more in line with scripture and less like man made interpretations?

I would say that is the exception, not the rule. As a general rule, it seems leaving standards is the proverbial "slippery slope."

Now, as for standards being witchcraft, that is ridiculous-sounds like an axe to grind to me. And while I believe in keeping the standards, I do believe we as a church need to re-evaluate the emphasis we put on them. Indeed there is no such thing as "holiness standards", but only "modesty standards".

Also, I will be the first to admit that there have been many Pentecostals who got the mindset that how they dressed made them holy. That attitude is indeed an enemy of the gospel of Jesus Christ. We need balance, we don't need to throw the baby out with the bath water, which is exactly what most people do when they decide not to keep "standards". They go to the extreme opposite. Fact is there is a ditch on both sides of the road.

[Scott Hutchinson]

The principle of modesty should be kept,and the principle of sanctification is a Biblical concept to be kept,if one walks after the Spirit,they will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh,a walk with God will produce true Holiness.

[Servetus]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

What do you mean by "the way they live"?

Basically that they have a Christianity not much different than an average baptist, methodist,etc. They still may have a little bit different doctrine or theology, but overall the commitment to Christ is gone. Frankly, they seem led of the flesh, not the spirit, and from I have seen are in bondage to the things of the flesh.

Now I'm not painting everyone with a broad brush, I know there are good people out there who don't necessarily "keep the standards", all I'm saying is that's a dangereous road. Many would have been much better off having never known, than to know and turn away.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Servetus

I am in that age bracket and most certainly believe in a lifestyle of holiness and modesty. The problem isn't the standards, it is putting the wrong emphasis/over emphasis on them. Most churches that drop "standards" end up with very little standards indeed.

What do you mean by "very little standards indeed?"

[pelathais]

oops... just saw Mizpeh's post. Sorry, didn't mean to tag-team.

[*AQuietPlace*]

There are many people who keep the dress codes who don't have a strong walk with God. They think as long as they've followed a checklist, they're good to go, and seek no closer walk with God.

I know many Baptists, Methodists, etc. who are completely devoted to God and seek to please him in everything they do.

You can't put the dress code people on one side, and everyone else on the other. It's simply not reality.

[Scott Hutchinson]

If one truly follows Christ in discipleship,then there will be plenty of standards to keep,and certainly being a hearer of the word,will cause one to have plenty of standards to keep.
Loving one's neighbor as themselves certainly is a big holiness standard to keep.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Servetus

Basically that they have a Christianity not much different than an average baptist, methodist,etc. They still may have a little bit different doctrine or theology, but overall the commitment to Christ is gone. Frankly, they seem led of the flesh, not the spirit, and from I have seen are in bondage to the things of the flesh.

Now I'm not painting everyone with a broad brush, I know there are good people out there who don't necessarily "keep the standards", all I'm saying is that's a dangereous road. Many would have been much better off having never known, than to know and turn away.

My experience over years of ministry is that the divorce rate, rates of infidelity, homosexuality, child molestation and criminal activity is as high or higher among professed "Apostolics" and "conservative holiness" types than it is among "baptist, methodist,etc."

I was personally fired from my position in an "Apostolic church" as part of a plan to cover up the fact that a visiting evangelist was involved in adultery.

The man they hired to replace me with is currently sitting in a Texas state prison cell for crimes unrelated to any of that.

Tell me again about your "holiness" code. If you doubt my story - take it over to JP or CAF for verification.

[Servetus]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

There are many people who keep the dress codes who don't have a strong walk with God. They think as long as they've followed a checklist, they're good to go, and seek no closer walk with God.

I know many Baptists, Methodists, etc. who are completely devoted to God and seek to please him in everything they do.

You can't put the dress code people on one side, and everyone else on the other. It's simply not reality.

Exactly.

However, because some people are carnal, because some don't have a real relationship with God, and don't pray, and read the Bible as they ought, therefore they're righteousness is according to a checklist, not Christ--that doesn't make "standards" wrong.

That is in effect the same argument as "Christianity isn't true because there are too many hypocrites."

That said, I agree with your post, but I don't see how the unrighteousness and carnality of some can be used to disprove doctrine. What it does prove is your outside can't make your inside holy. Then again, haven't the muslim women already proven that?

[Servetus]

Originally Posted by pelathais

My experience over years of ministry is that the divorce rate, rates of infidelity, homosexuality, child molestation and criminal activity is as high or higher among professed "Apostolics" and "conservative holiness" types than it is among "baptist, methodist,etc."

I was personally fired from my position in an "Apostolic church" as part of a plan to cover up the fact that a visiting evangelist was involved in adultery.

The man they hired to replace me with is currently sitting in a Texas state prison cell for crimes unrelated to any of that.

Tell me again about your "holiness" code. If you doubt my story - take it over to JP or CAF for verification.

Pel, I don't doubt it at all. I think it's sad and sickening, and I'm sorry you had to go through it.

However, it seems that the leadership of that church was corrupt/backslid, and it spilled over to the people. You seem to have escaped.

However, the very same argument you are using against "holiness" (which I have said isn't holiness at all), can be used against those who don't believe in standards at all.

Jesus preached to Judas, Paul ministered with Demas. Because people backslide or become corrupt doesn't necessarily mean the doctrine they believe/believed was wrong.