Better pay up....LOL

[Jason B]

Good discussion between NOW and NOS, good points made by both. Overall, I'd have to side with NOS, because despite the fact that these mega churches are supposed to be "Reaching" the un-churched, the result seems to truly be Christianity without the cross.

I work with people who go to the local megas, have family memebrs who attend some. To me it is quite a perk, you can go to a big church, and be a Christian without repentance. Hey, if I want to continue to live my own way, but be caled a Christian, sign me up for that one. And, guess what, they sign up in droves. But are they being concerted, are they being born again, are their lives bearing the fruit of the Spirit, as a majority, no.

It is this type of "grace" Paul writes against in Romans 6:1-2.


PS-I lost alot of respect when Warren flip flopped on homosexuality last year during (or right after) the elections.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by Jason

Good discussion between NOW and NOS, good points made by both. Overall, I'd have to side with NOS, because despite the fact that these mega churches are supposed to be "Reaching" the un-churched, the result seems to truly be Christianity without the cross.

I work with people who go to the local megas, have family memebrs who attend some. To me it is quite a perk, you can go to a big church, and be a Christian without repentance. Hey, if I want to continue to live my own way, but be caled a Christian, sign me up for that one. And, guess what, they sign up in droves. But are they being concerted, are they being born again, are their lives bearing the fruit of the Spirit, as a majority, no.

It is this type of "grace" Paul writes against in Romans 6:1-2.


PS-I lost alot of respect when Warren flip flopped on homosexuality last year during (or right after) the elections.

Aaaaack!!! Jason, you know I love you, but this makes me crazy!! How can you say that? Let me ask you this.....go head and be negative with your answer, but of Saddleback's 40,000 members, what percentage would you have "True Christianity with the cross"?


And when did Warren flip-flop on homosexuality? He outwardly supported Prop 8 (in which I was disappointed) and he never changed that stance.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Aaaaack!!! Jason, you know I love you, but this makes me crazy!! How can you say that? Let me ask you this.....go head and be negative with your answer, but of Saddleback's 40,000 members, what percentage would you have "True Christianity with the cross"?


And when did Warren flip-flop on homosexuality? He outwardly supported Prop 8 (in which I was disappointed) and he never changed that stance.

How can I say that? About Saddleback, I can't. About the megas down here in Texas, I can through experience, both my own (before I was actually saved, I went to megas with my mom) and others I know. I don't have statistics, but of the people I have know who attend such churches, they are definitely weak/immature in faith, or not converted at all.

I don't say ALL who attend, but I believe it is safe to say a majority.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by Jason

How can I say that? About Saddleback, I can't. About the megas down here in Texas, I can through experience, both my own (before I was actually saved, I went to megas with my mom) and others I know. I don't have statistics, but of the people I have know who attend such churches, they are definitely weak/immature in faith, or not converted at all.

I don't say ALL who attend, but I believe it is safe to say a majority.

There's no way we could know for sure, I understand that. I'm just asking for a wild guess. But let's be really, really negative and say that only 5% of Saddleback's crowd is really saved. Would you agree that's really negative? Yikes!! Imagine only 5% of our audience being the "real deal."

Well, with Saddleback, that would mean that TWO THOUSAND PEOPLE are saved, and the real deal, which still is a huge number!

Yes, many people who attend Saddleback or Willow are not "true-blue" and there out of convenience, and not yet really dedicated......which I say is FANTASTIC!!! Just imagine having a huge audience each week of people who are prospective Christ-Followers! Let it be, Lord!!

Many churches would be thrilled with 20 visitors in one year. I would happily speak to thousands of uncommitted people each week. This is highly preferable to speaking to the same ole people every week who are advanced about as far as they're ever gonna go.

I would very happily take the Saddleback-type crowd...in fact, that's exactly what we now have, just 39,700 short!

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by notofworks

There's no way we could know for sure, I understand that. I'm just asking for a wild guess. But let's be really, really negative and say that only 5% of Saddleback's crowd is really saved. Would you agree that's really negative? Yikes!! Imagine only 5% of our audience being the "real deal."

Well, with Saddleback, that would mean that TWO THOUSAND PEOPLE are saved, and the real deal, which still is a huge number!

Yes, many people who attend Saddleback or Willow are not "true-blue" and there out of convenience, and not yet really dedicated......which I say is FANTASTIC!!! Just imagine having a huge audience each week of people who are prospective Christ-Followers! Let it be, Lord!!

Many churches would be thrilled with 20 visitors in one year. I would happily speak to thousands of uncommitted people each week. This is highly preferable to speaking to the same ole people every week who are advanced about as far as they're ever gonna go.

I would very happily take the Saddleback-type crowd...in fact, that's exactly what we now have, just 39,700 short!

NOW, I love your point of view, and you know we are largely like minded. But my issue is with churches who give these non-dedicated church attending people the impression that they ARE born again.

I'd love for 200 or 300 uncomitted, curious, agnogstic folks to be in ou services each week, but wouldn't tell them theyre going to heaven as they are.

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by Jason

Good discussion between NOW and NOS, good points made by both. Overall, I'd have to side with NOS, because despite the fact that these mega churches are supposed to be "Reaching" the un-churched, the result seems to truly be Christianity without the cross.

I work with people who go to the local megas, have family memebrs who attend some. To me it is quite a perk, you can go to a big church, and be a Christian without repentance. Hey, if I want to continue to live my own way, but be caled a Christian, sign me up for that one. And, guess what, they sign up in droves. But are they being concerted, are they being born again, are their lives bearing the fruit of the Spirit, as a majority, no.

It is this type of "grace" Paul writes against in Romans 6:1-2.


PS-I lost alot of respect when Warren flip flopped on homosexuality last year during (or right after) the elections.

Jason, you're right. People that attend larger Churches are less accountable, which in turn breeds a weaker commitment. I've attended large and small churches, and the smaller congregations are much closer and connected because they have to be. When fellowship is limited, so are your options if you get offended or struggle.

We have a woman who has been attending our Church for a few years now. She came from the bigger city, and a Church that offered more fellowship, music options, and a constant flow of visiting speakers. When she first came here, she did nothing but complain and her shallow spiritual perception was staggering.

When she found out she would have to stand on her own 2 feet, and carry a load she never carried before, she about fell apart.

But now, I've watched as she has slowly transformed into being more of a blessing in helping others instead of being such a taker.

As far as Mr. Warren going to the most unchurched populace in America, he's never been to the Pacific Northwest. This area is known for being the hardest place in the Country to build a Church. On the other hand, Los Angeles, California, is a far cry from being unchurched. I was saved in Southern California when I was in the Marines, and Churches of great size and numbers are there, and don’t even compare to the Northwest.

In the North, we deal with harsh and dark winters, and depression is rampant. Alcoholism, suicide, and many other deep problems plague this area for several months out of the year. LA, on the other hand, has one of the most temperate climates on earth, with little rain, and mellow winters.

Go ahead and Google Mega Churches in Washington State and then California. Out of 100 Mega Churches in the United States, 19 are in Southern California and Rick Warren's church has over 20,000 attendees. 14 of the fastest growing Churches are in California, and 10 of those are in Southern California.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

Jason, you're right. People that attend larger Churches are less accountable, which in turn breeds a weaker commitment. I've attended large and small churches, and the smaller congregations are much closer and connected because they have to be. When fellowship is limited, so are your options if you get offended or struggle.

We have a woman who has been attending our Church for a few years now. She came from the bigger city, and a Church that offered more fellowship, music options, and a constant flow of visiting speakers. When she first came here, she did nothing but complain and her shallow spiritual perception was staggering.

When she found out she would have to stand on her own 2 feet, and carry a load she never carried before, she about fell apart.

But now, I've watched as she has slowly transformed into being more of a blessing in helping others instead of being such a taker.

As far as Mr. Warren going to the most unchurched populace in America, he's never been to the Pacific Northwest. This area is known for being the hardest place in the Country to build a Church. On the other hand, Los Angeles, California, is a far cry from being unchurched. I was saved in Southern California when I was in the Marines, and Churches of great size and numbers are there, and don’t even compare to the Northwest.

In the North, we deal with harsh and dark winters, and depression is rampant. Alcoholism, suicide, and many other deep problems plague this area for several months out of the year. LA, on the other hand, has one of the most temperate climates on earth, with little rain, and mellow winters.

Go ahead and Google Mega Churches in Washington State and then California. Out of 100 Mega Churches in the United States, 19 are in Southern California and Rick Warren's church has over 20,000 attendees. 14 of the fastest growing Churches are in California, and 10 of those are in Southern California.

Well, our population in California is much larger so it makes sense that we would have more large churches. But Rick Warren and Saddleback is not in Los Angeles. It's in the Lake Forest area, quite a bit south of LA, which had been a very "unchurched" area 30 years ago, and still is a pretty tough place to grow a church.

While it could be true that some "mega-churches" are impersonal, many are very closely knit through small groups. Willow and Northpoint have, very much, a small-church feel to them.

But I just wonder, when does a church get too big? At what number do we tell the next person they can't come? When do we tell people to stop inviting new people?