I think everyone here believes in modesty, but even in the ranks of the UPCI standards vary so much from church to church that it seems that even they don't have a consistent agreement. This is because many of them are just pastoral whims, and UPC Pastor A and UPC Pastor B have different degrees of whimsicality.
As for the line drawn and the bar raised or lowered, that is as much a personal conviction issue with regards to a persons relationship with Jesus. Not a dictate from a pastor. We draw the line as we from the heart grow in grace.
Does that muzzle the preacher. Nope. There is a whole bible filled with biblical principles from cover to cover to preach from. We grow as learn to apply those principles and that covers a whole lot more than wardrobe.
God didn't give us his Spirit to lead and guide us if all we needed was another book of laws. Nor did he call and raise up the ministry as a law-making body. Anyone can line up to a dress code...muslims do it everyday.
My biggest issue with "standards" is how they are used to "Draw the line, set the bar" by people, often through misuse and misinterpretation of the Word, and then used to benchmark other believers and reject them based on externals. It foments an elitist mentality and attitude of "We got it and they don't". Something I believe the Lord finds abhorrent.
In passing let me mention Deuteronomy 22, as this was discussed. It isn't a buffet table where one can just grab the verse that seems to support their position, and discount the rest.
Good points!
Here's where I'm at:
I think that everyone can agree on the fact the first churches (epistles) without doubt laid down a number of dress codes. Now with that knowledge, do we:
1 - Try to decipher these dress codes and apply them today?
2 - Try to understand the thought process used in creating these dress codes and apply this process to a 21st Century application?
I think the UPCI has done a little bit of both which has yielded some uncanny results (no beards, open-toed shoes, etc.)
But what I don't know that I can live with is the idea that dress standards are to only be a personal conviction. That is just not supported in the Bible and I would venture to say that even the most open-minded member on here would have some issues if their respective platform staff showed up Sun. morning with purple hair, tattoo's, tongue piercing etc. And as result feel that something should be done or said. ...be honest!
Bottom line is:
I think everyone, (Apostolic's, Baptist's, Catholic's etc.) has a line that they feel should be drawn. I don't see eye-to-eye with every issue, but instead of just tearing down we have to acknowledge that all of us have some sort of personal standard and begin to consider how we can ever reconcile the differences? I know, I know, standards should not be crammed down throats, and taken out of context! I AGREE MORE THAN YOU KNOW! But having no standards is just unrealistic - every religion, workplace, and business does.
Propose a change! Don't just complain about the obvious. But that's a bigger task than what any of us imagine. In this light, I can't throw that many stones at the UPCI
Here's where I'm at:
I think that everyone can agree on the fact the first churches (epistles) without doubt laid down a number of dress codes. Now with that knowledge, do we:
1 - Try to decipher these dress codes and apply them today?
2 - Try to understand the thought process used in creating these dress codes and apply this process to a 21st Century application?
I think the UPCI has done a little bit of both which has yielded some uncanny results (no beards, open-toed shoes, etc.)
But what I don't know that I can live with is the idea that dress standards are to only be a personal conviction. That is just not supported in the Bible and I would venture to say that even the most open-minded member on here would have some issues if their respective platform staff showed up Sun. morning with purple hair, tattoo's, tongue piercing etc. And as result feel that something should be done or said. ...be honest!
Bottom line is:
I think everyone, (Apostolic's, Baptist's, Catholic's etc.) has a line that they feel should be drawn. I don't see eye-to-eye with every issue, but instead of just tearing down and only pointing out the extremists views we have to acknowledge that all of us have some sort of personal standard and begin to consider how we can ever reconcile the differences? I know, I know, standards should not be crammed down throats, and taken out of context! I AGREE MORE THAN YOU KNOW! But having no standards is just unrealistic - every religion, workplace, and business does.
Propose a change! Don't just complain about the obvious. But that's a bigger task than what any of us imagine. In this light, I can't throw that many stones at the UPCI
Here's where I'm at:
I think that everyone can agree on the fact the first churches (epistles) without doubt laid down a number of dress codes. Now with that knowledge, do we:
1 - Try to decipher these dress codes and apply them today?
2 - Try to understand the thought process used in creating these dress codes and apply this process to a 21st Century application?
I think the UPCI has done a little bit of both which has yielded some uncanny results (no beards, open-toed shoes, etc.)
But what I don't know that I can live with is the idea that dress standards are to only be a personal conviction. That is just not supported in the Bible and I would venture to say that even the most open-minded member on here would have some issues if their respective platform staff showed up Sun. morning with purple hair, tattoo's, tongue piercing etc. And as result feel that something should be done or said. ...be honest!
Bottom line is:
I think everyone, (Apostolic's, Baptist's, Catholic's etc.) has a line that they feel should be drawn. I don't see eye-to-eye with every issue, but instead of just tearing down we have to acknowledge that all of us have some sort of personal standard and begin to consider how we can ever reconcile the differences? I know, I know, standards should not be crammed down throats, and taken out of context! I AGREE MORE THAN YOU KNOW! But having no standards is just unrealistic - every religion, workplace, and business does.
Propose a change! Don't just complain about the obvious. But that's a bigger task than what any of us imagine. In this light, I can't throw that many stones at the UPCI
Sorry... didn't realize you responded to me, the thread got busy and so did I.
That is just it, the epistles really didn't hand down any dress codes other than modesty. Most folks wore open toed shoes (sandals) and in Jewish culture only two kinds of men were clean shaven... sodomites and Romans.
Modesty is the standard when it comes to clothing. And with correctly applied biblical principles+Holy Ghost convictions, no-one will have purple hair, piercings or lay on the beach in a speedo or bikini.
I really have no problem with standards applied personally as an outward manifestation of and inward commitment to Jesus. Since we seem to be new to each other and for the benefit of those who do not know me or know me well I fall on the conservative side of the fence and am what this forum's member would call a three stepper. In fact I am probably a bit more on the conservative side than many mainstream UPCI churches.
I agree that having no standards is unrealistic. Everyone has a line, it may be drawn at different places but the line is there.
My only problems with them fall into three areas.
When they are inconsistently taught using inapplicable scriptures or misinterpreted scripture. i.e.
(3) Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
(4) But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
This scripture is incorrectly used as a prohibition against wearing any jewelry. Yet where is the standard which could also be extracted from this on plaiting of hair and apparel? The last UPCI General COnference I went to had all kinds of hairdos and outlandish dresses, but no jewelry of course!
Instead the principle of the verses is simple, don't let the outward be your adorning. So correctly applied biblical principle would dictate that if I wear jewelry (i don't BTW) it won't be the extravagant sort that draw attention to itself and the same would apply to my hair and clothes.
When they are used as a guideline to judge and discard people, whether they be sinner or saint. Despite the old Apostolic title "Fruit Inspector" which I always heard used in conjunction with judging someone's outward appearance, God never commissioned such an office.
When we put someone in hell because they got hair on their face or own a television, I think we stand in danger of the judgment over it, because that is precisely what the Pharisees did and we know how Jesus responded to that... he hasn't changed his mind on that.
When preacher arbitrarily make rules up and demand obedience to their personal likes or dislikes because they are "the man of God" and threatens people with hell if they don't line up.
So there that is, pretty much my view of all that. Jesus' didn't come to make a new religion. And when we place an over emphasis on out ward things and mandate them, that is what we are doing, turning the liberty he called us to into another religion.
The UPCI started on a good course, one steppers and three steppers commited to work together to further the gospel, outward wasn't much of an issue... but somewhere along the way it turned into just another religious denomination.
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Last edited by John Atkinson; 01-21-2010 at 10:42 AM.
jasites, come back more often. I wish I could say that there won't be any sarcasm or poking, but we would enjoy your input. That kind of levelheadedness is needed everywhere.
Love neighbor, love God (the Jesus creed)
Be Honest
Be kind
Be modest
Show moderation
In all things, seek the work of the Spirit in sanctification to mature us. Be sensitive and open to God's promptings, not as illegitimate children with no father.
Why don't we all, as Apostolics, just love each other the way we are, and live what we believe is right?
I don't remember Jesus telling anyone to change their clothes before He would heal them or eat with them. One parable about clothes-about the wedding garments. And I'll say again, I have a uc background but I'm still saying this. I'm not defending my stance.
But there is this, and it's been at the back of my mind for a while:
Luke 9
49And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
50And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.
Mark 9
38And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
39But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
40For he that is not against us is on our part.
41For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.
42And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
Why don't we all, as Apostolics, just love each other the way we are, and live what we believe is right?
If you look at the diversity on AFF, and the fact that for the most part everyone gets along, even though they may disagree, even vehemently, very few posters are ever outwardly hateful here.
I'd have to say we really aren't doing too bad a job of it.
If you look at the diversity on AFF, and the fact that for the most part everyone gets along, even though they may disagree, even vehemently, very few posters are ever outwardly hateful here.
I'd have to say we really aren't doing too bad a job of it.
Yes, overall, I'd say that AFF is doing a much better job of that than many people I've met personally. Maybe those I've met personally are on the fringe. I hope so.
Why don't we all, as Apostolics, just love each other the way we are, and live what we believe is right?
I don't remember Jesus telling anyone to change their clothes before He would heal them or eat with them. One parable about clothes-about the wedding garments. And I'll say again, I have a uc background but I'm still saying this. I'm not defending my stance.
But there is this, and it's been at the back of my mind for a while:
Luke 9
49And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
50And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.
Mark 9
38And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
39But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
40For he that is not against us is on our part.
41For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.
42And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
Amen, but I believe that people feel they've been hurt and want to voice that. It would not be the way I would handle it, but to each his own I suppose.
I believe that everything I go through is a learning experience and there is no need to continue to complain. It would mean, to me, that I am lacking faith. And it would mean, to me, that I am not listening to God who always guides and comforts.
Amen, but I believe that people feel they've been hurt and want to voice that. It would not be the way I would handle it, but to each his own I suppose.
I believe that everything I go through is a learning experience and there is no need to continue to complain. It would mean, to me, that I am lacking faith. And it would mean, to me, that I am not listening to God who always guides and comforts.
Sometimes people who are hurt need to talk to work through their hurt. Sometimes others need to know they aren't the only ones who have been hurt-talking about it can become part of that "great cloud of witnesses" if kept positive.
There are some people that have been so deeply hurt that they don't trust God. Been there. If others hadn't shared with me how they got through it, and been compassionate and prayerful, I'd have left God long ago.
I know you know that, not disputing your post, just adding a bit.
Hybrid Mode
