Regarding ORDINATION

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by DAII

The fruit appointed or ordained by Christ is John 15 to all his disciples, D4T, is ... ???

It is unfortunate that John is the only of the gospels that recalls this event because more clarity might be gleaned from another perspective.

The natural reaction from todays paradigm is one of souls IMO but a careful reading of the entire chapter reveals hints that Jesus is, indeed, speaking of the fruit of the spirit.

Remember what the fruit of the spirit is Jesus begins speaking of fruit in John 15:2 and he goes on to mention love and joy. These could be sufficient mentions to draw the conclusion that the fruit he is speaking of is the fruit of the spirit.

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by DAII

We find appointments or ordination of church deacons, church elders, missionaries, and others throughout Scripture.

Found this article on the topic

----------------------------------------------------------

Question: "What does the Bible say about ordination?"

Answer: The modern definition of ordination is “the investiture of clergy” or “the act of granting pastoral authority or sacerdotal power.” Usually, we think of an ordination service as a ceremony in which someone is commissioned or appointed to a position within the church. Often, the ceremony involves the laying on of hands.

However, the biblical definition is a little different. The word ordain in the Bible refers to a setting in place or designation; for example, Joseph was “ordained” as a ruler in Egypt (Acts 7:10); the steward in Jesus’ parable was “ordained” to oversee a household (Matthew 24:45); deacons were “ordained” to serve the Jerusalem church (Acts 6:1-6); and pastors were “ordained” in each city in Crete (Titus 1:5). In none of these cases is the mode of ordination specified, nor is any ceremony detailed; the “ordinations” are simply appointments. The word can even be used negatively, as an appointment to punishment (Luke 12:46).

Acts 13 includes a good example of a ministerial appointment: “While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, ‘Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.’ So after they had fasted and prayed, they placed their hands on them and sent them off. The two of them, sent on their way by the Holy Spirit, went down to Seleucia” (vv. 2-4). In this passage, we note some key facts: 1) It is God Himself who calls the men to the ministry and qualifies them with gifts (Acts 20:28; Ephesians 4:11). 2) The members of the church recognize God’s clear leading and embrace it. 3) With prayer and fasting, the church lays hands on Paul and Barnabas to demonstrate their commissioning (cf. Acts 6:6; 1 Timothy 5:22). 4) God works through the church, as both the church and the Spirit are said to “send” the missionaries.

Paul regularly ordained pastors for the churches he planted. He and Barnabas directed the appointment or ordination of elders “in each church” in Galatia (Acts 14:23). He instructed Titus to “appoint elders in every town” on Crete (Titus 1:5). Titus himself had been ordained earlier, when “he was chosen by the churches” (2 Corinthians 8:19). In the above passages, the ordination of elders involves the whole congregation, not just the apostles. The Greek word used in 2 Corinthians 8:19 for Titus’s appointment and in Acts 14:23 for the choosing of the Galatian elders literally means “to stretch forth the hands.” It was a word normally used for the act of voting in the Athenian legislature. Thus, the ordination of church leaders involved a general consensus in the church, if not an official vote. The apostles and the congregations knew whom the Spirit had chosen, and they responded by placing those men in leadership.

When God calls and qualifies a man for the ministry, it will be apparent both to that man and to the rest of the church. The would-be minister will meet the qualifications set forth in 1 Timothy 3:1-16 and Titus 1:5-9, and he will possess a consuming desire to preach (1 Corinthians 9:16). It is the duty of the church elders, together with the congregation, to recognize and accept the calling. After that, a formal commissioning ceremony—an ordination service—is appropriate, though by no means mandatory. The ordination ceremony itself does not confer any special power; it simply gives public recognition to God’s choice of leadership.

http://www.gotquestions.org/ordination.html

-----------------------

Again the appointment may or may not include giftings ...

Agreed. Good post.

There may well be giftings at the time of ones appointing but those giftings would be consequence of the laying on of hands and the anointing. Not the appointment itself.

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by DAII

I am interested in the biblical basis to what the "breakthrough into a new spiritual dimension" is as described by DKB.

That would be interesting to know indeed.

[DAII]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

It is unfortunate that John is the only of the gospels that recalls this event because more clarity might be gleaned from another perspective.

The natural reaction from todays paradigm is one of souls IMO but a careful reading of the entire chapter reveals hints that Jesus is, indeed, speaking of the fruit of the spirit.

Remember what the fruit of the spirit is Jesus begins speaking of fruit in John 15:2 and he goes on to mention love and joy. These could be sufficient mentions to draw the conclusion that the fruit he is speaking of is the fruit of the spirit.

Love seems to be theme throughout his talk with them in John 15.

Notwithstanding, I find the coincidence to love being the first thing mentioned by Paul in describing the Fruit of the Spirit in Galatians and his reminder that if we don't have love we have nothing in 1 Cor 13.

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by DAII

Love seems to be theme throughout his talk with them in John 15.

Notwithstanding, I find the coincidence to love being the first thing mentioned by Paul in describing the Fruit of the Spirit in Galatians and his reminder that if we don't have love we have nothing in 1 Cor 13.

Indeed love is the theme... which makes a mention of the fruit of the spirit fitting for the theme.

Indeed... I feel it is no coincidence that love was mentioned first.

[DAII]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

Indeed love is the theme... which makes a mention of the fruit of the spirit fitting for the theme.

Indeed... I feel it is no coincidence that love was mentioned first.

Through the years I remember many a preacher prooftexting from John 15 to point to the fruit of outward dress holiness .... when time a time again I find Jesus and his disciples pounding the message of loving one another as the standard.

Starting with Jesus saying the world would know us when we love one another.

I see a stark contrast in the values given to words in Apostolic culture to the values given to various words in the 1st century church ...

This includes words like ordination, standards, the Holy Ghost, etc.

Yesterday, in a discussion with a close friend, we spoke about the impact and value words have in any given culture.

For example, the Inuit have various words for the word "snow" in their culture because of the intrinsic value it has in their live ... they have a a distinct word for such things as soft, wet snow as opposed to dry, powdery snow ... simply because the value it has in their everyday lives .... While we just say snow.

In our culture, the automobile has great value and so we have devised words to distinguish the various vehicles we have ... motorcycles, SUVs, racecars, sports car, jalopy, etc.

When it is valued ... a culture will reflect it with their word choice.

And so when I look at the Book ... I don't find the obsession, nor the constant pounding of outward apparel being linked with outward holiness throughout the words used by Jesus and his disciples.

I have to think this was not a core value based on their letters and Gospels ... as opposed to the constant barrage of such words as love, faith, grace, hope, etc.

Other than phalacteries of the Pharisees where does Jesus preach clothesline in a society that included many who had been helenized ... and also included worldly pagans?

The entire body of the epistles written to many living in pagan societies ... yet with no value expressed for some of the things that are drilled into the modern OP consciousness.

Our modern OP communications whether a missionary bulletin or a facebook status always include stats like 27 received the Holy Ghost and 12 baptized in Jesus name.

I open the Book and the epistles don't read like this yet do share the great work going on in various missionary cities ... as part of their "praise reports". Why, when false doctrine had raised its ulgy head even in th 1st century church?

Find the words "dress standards" ... a term with great import to some today ... in the Book and I will give you a million bucks.

It just seems that the values don't match up with those who claim exclusivity to the apostolic doctrine.

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by DAII

Through the years I remember many a preacher prooftexting from John 15 to point to the fruit of outward dress holiness .... when time a time again I find Jesus and his disciples pounding the message of loving one another as the standard.

Starting with Jesus saying the world would know us when we love one another.

I see a stark contrast in the values given to words in Apostolic culture to the values given to various words in the 1st century church ...

This includes words like ordination, standards, the Holy Ghost, etc.

Yesterday, in a discussion with a close friend, we spoke about the impact and value words have in given culture.

For example, the Inuit have various words for the word "snow" in their culture because of the intrinsic value it has in their live ... they have a a distinct word for such things as soft, wet snow as opposed to dry, powdery snow ... simply because the value it has in their everyday lives ....

In our culture the automobile has great value and so we have devised words to distinguish the various vehicles we have ... motorcycles, SUVs, racecars, sports car, jalopy, etc.

When it is valued ... a culture will reflect it with their word choice.

And so when I look at the Book ... I don't find the obsession, nor the constant pounding of outward apparel being linked with outward holiness throughout the words used by Jesus and his disciples.

I have to think this was not a core value based on their letters and Gospels ... as opposed to the constant barrage of such words as love, faith, grace, hope, etc.

Other than phalacteries of the Pharisees where does Jesus preach clothesline in a society that included many who had been helenized ... and also included worldly pagans?

The entire body of the epistles written to many living in pagan societies with no value for some of the things that are drilled into the modern OP consciousness.

Our modern OP communications whether a missionary bulletin or a facebook status always include stats like 27 received the Holy Ghost and 12 baptized in Jesus name.

I open the Book and the epistles don't read like this yet share the great work going on in various missionary cities are part of their "praise reports".

Find the word dress standards ... a word with great import to some today ... in the Book and I will give you a million bucks.

It just seems that the values don't match up with those who claim exclusivity to the apostolic doctrine.

Indeed.

To change a peoples belief system you don't have to change their beliefs... just change the definition of their words.

[Aquila]

I have come to believe that ordination in an "organization" is a method in which to control the ministry and build up a human institution. In the Bible local assemblies ordained their elders as necessary. Assemblies were smaller, met in homes, and they were largely governed by more than one elder. No paperwork was required, an anointing from God that was evident to the congregation was all that was necessary.

Of course, I'm jaded. I've come to not trust organized religion. I lean far more toward house churching and open, localized, and participatory leadership.

I don't see pastoring, evangelist, etc. as being "offices" but rather "ministries". One called to "pastor" is called to mentor and shepherd the flock. One need not have an office with their name on it, a wooden pulpit, a building, or anything of that nature to "pastor". In fact, most churches today have holy men of God who "shepherd" the believers though they don't hold an official office in the church. These are operating in pastoral ministry.

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I have come to believe that ordination in an "organization" is a method in which to control the ministry and build up a human institution. In the Bible local assemblies ordained their elders as necessary. Assemblies were smaller, met in homes, and they were largely governed by more than one elder. No paperwork was required, an anointing from God that was evident to the congregation was all that was necessary.

Of course, I'm jaded. I've come to not trust organized religion. I lean far more toward house churching and open, localized, and participatory leadership.

I don't see pastoring, evangelist, etc. as being "offices" but rather "ministries". One called to "pastor" is called to mentor and shepherd the flock. One need not have an office with their name on it, a wooden pulpit, a building, or anything of that nature to "pastor". In fact, most churches today have holy men of God who "shepherd" the believers though they don't hold an official office in the church. These are operating in pastoral ministry.

And... even then... ordination was simply a word that meant... appointed.

They appointed pastors, elders etc as needed rather than (queue angelic choir) ordain (cut angelic choir) them in the sense it is viewed in today.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Apocrypha

...
Why would anyone want to get ordained other than to run for office?

Ordination/licensing by a recognized religious group is required by the state of Ohio for a person to legally perform weddings. It is also required in this county to have access to personally visit someone who is incarcerated. The ordination/license must be presented to the Secretary of the State of Ohio to get a certificate to legally perform marriages. That state certificate to perform marriages is required by the local Hamilton County Sheriff before you can get a permit to personally visit someone who is incarcerated in the local county jail system.

I have been denied access to visit someone in a hospital but have then been permitted to make the visit after I show them my current fellowship card which says that I am an ordained minister with the Church of Jesus Christ.

The laws and rules may vary from state to state.