Winterfire 2010

[TroubleMaker]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Every person's experience should start with a pursuit of God--not a pursuit of religion. And if and when they do go to church, that pursuit should be encouraged and enhanced by what is taught and practiced there--not laid down in exchange for the church teachings.



I've answered your questions as clearly as I know how, and there aren't any more answers to be had.

I consider anyone who has devoted their life to following the teachings of Christ to be a devout Christian. The truths found in God's Word are the most important ones anyone will ever discover. I don't see how those two statements are contradictory. Sorry to disappoint!

So let's look at this from another direction and I'll just ask a direct yes/no question: Are the "One-God, Jesus' name baptism, tongues, three-step for salvation" doctrines meaningful to you?

And I didn't say anything about "pursuing religion". I've never been interested in religion. I'm talking about pursuing God through the channel of the local church. I'm talking about "Bob", who's life is in chaos, who decides to attend church, the next day. What makes your church the better place, doctrinally?

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by TroubleMaker

So let's look at this from another direction and I'll just ask a direct yes/no question: Are the "One-God, Jesus' name baptism, tongues, three-step for salvation" doctrines meaningful to you?

Yes.

And I didn't say anything about "pursuing religion". I've never been interested in religion. I'm talking about pursuing God through the channel of the local church. I'm talking about "Bob", who's life is in chaos, who decides to attend church, the next day. What makes your church the better place, doctrinally?

Truth is always better than error.

[TroubleMaker]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Yes.

Truth is always better than error.

Well, duh, of course truth is better than error. But is your "truth" merely better or "preferable" than the "error" of others or is it an "absolute"? Does the eternity of "Bob" depend on which church he chooses when he reaches out to God in a time of personal desperation? In other words, is it possible that "Bob", when he hits bottom (remember, he lost his job, his family, his wife, and he's desperately reaching out to God), would call upon God in his distress, become attached to a church that is instrumental in turning his life around, "Bob" is baptized, takes on faith in Jesus Christ, and 6 months into his new life, gets hit by a garbage truck and then........goes to hell? Do you think that's possible?

[DAII]

Originally Posted by TroubleMaker

Well, duh, of course truth is better than error. But is your "truth" merely better or "preferable" than the "error" of others or is it an "absolute"? Does the eternity of "Bob" depend on which church he chooses when he reaches out to God in a time of personal desperation? In other words, is it possible that "Bob", when he hits bottom (remember, he lost his job, his family, his wife, and he's desperately reaching out to God), would call upon God in his distress, become attached to a church that is instrumental in turning his life around, "Bob" is baptized, takes on faith in Jesus Christ, and 6 months into his new life, gets hit by a garbage truck and then........goes to hell? Do you think that's possible?

This is where you will get the ... I am not God spiel.

[TroubleMaker]

Originally Posted by DAII

This is where you will get the ... I am not God spiel.

...which is completely hypocritical. If an entire system is built on these dogmas, somebody better be able to tell "Bob" the truth! Interesting, isn't it, that a Church System will frame itself completely on these "truths", preach endlessly about the essentialness of certain baptismal words, and then choke at the last minute when someone demands an absolute line in the sand concerning eternity.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by TroubleMaker

So let's look at this from another direction and I'll just ask a direct yes/no question: Are the "One-God, Jesus' name baptism, tongues, three-step for salvation" doctrines meaningful to you?

Belief in one God, baptism in Jesus' name, being filled with the Holy Ghost, initially evidenced by speaking in tongues, and striving to live righteously are all very important doctrines to me. I would recommend them strongly to anyone interested in salvation.

And I didn't say anything about "pursuing religion". I've never been interested in religion. I'm talking about pursuing God through the channel of the local church. I'm talking about "Bob", who's life is in chaos, who decides to attend church, the next day. What makes your church the better place, doctrinally?

When you use the term "your church", are you asking about my particular local church or the denomination the church belongs to?

[TroubleMaker]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Belief in one God, baptism in Jesus' name, being filled with the Holy Ghost, initially evidenced by speaking in tongues, and striving to live righteously are all very important doctrines to me. I would recommend them strongly to anyone interested in salvation.



When you use the term "your church", are you asking about my particular local church or the denomination the church belongs to?

I'm speaking of your "church system", the one that is fairly militant about certain dogmas, particularly the Godhead, baptismal formula, dress code, and the dramatic focus on the role of "tongues."

Is there any difference between your "church system" and the system of the school principal? Is there something that makes your church system "Right" and something that makes his church system "wrong" and if so, what happens if "Bob" flips the "church coin" and inadvertently chooses the wrong church? Will his eternity be effected...and when you answer, please don't opt for the generic "I'm not the judge, that's God's job"? Your entire church system, and others, seem to judge by making such a HUGE deal out of certain non-essential (as I see them) so-called "doctrines."

Secondly, you stated that you are striving to live righteously. I'm wondering how you do that. Isn't our righteousness only from God? How are you able to produce your own righteousness? You sound like the person spoken of in Romans 10 and Colossians 2:

New International Version
Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness.Romans 10:3

New Living Translation
20 You have died with Christ, and he has set you free from the spiritual powers of this world. So why do you keep on following the rules of the world, such as, 21 “Don’t handle! Don’t taste! Don’t touch!”? 22 Such rules are mere human teachings about things that deteriorate as we use them. 23 These rules may seem wise because they require strong devotion, pious self-denial, and severe bodily discipline. But they provide no help in conquering a person’s evil desires.Colossians 2-20-23

[TroubleMaker]

Originally Posted by TroubleMaker

I'm speaking of your "church system", the one that is fairly militant about certain dogmas, particularly the Godhead, baptismal formula, dress code, and the dramatic focus on the role of "tongues."

Is there any difference between your "church system" and the system of the school principal? Is there something that makes your church system "Right" and something that makes his church system "wrong" and if so, what happens if "Bob" flips the "church coin" and inadvertently chooses the wrong church? Will his eternity be effected...and when you answer, please don't opt for the generic "I'm not the judge, that's God's job"? Your entire church system, and others, seem to judge by making such a HUGE deal out of certain non-essential (as I see them) so-called "doctrines."

Secondly, you stated that you are striving to live righteously. I'm wondering how you do that. Isn't our righteousness only from God? How are you able to produce your own righteousness? You sound like the person spoken of in Romans 10 and Colossians 2:

New International Version
Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness.Romans 10:3

New Living Translation
20 You have died with Christ, and he has set you free from the spiritual powers of this world. So why do you keep on following the rules of the world, such as, 21 “Don’t handle! Don’t taste! Don’t touch!”? 22 Such rules are mere human teachings about things that deteriorate as we use them. 23 These rules may seem wise because they require strong devotion, pious self-denial, and severe bodily discipline. But they provide no help in conquering a person’s evil desires.Colossians 2-20-23

Hello? Miss Brat? Testing 1,2,3,4?

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by TroubleMaker

I'm speaking of your "church system", the one that is fairly militant about certain dogmas, particularly the Godhead, baptismal formula, dress code, and the dramatic focus on the role of "tongues."

I wouldn't describe my church as "militant" at all. What do you mean by "militant?" Do you actually know anything at all about *my* church system? If you mean that people teach things and state they are "truth", then I would say that most religious denominations do that--it isn't unique to my church. There are some non-denominational groups that provide cosmopolitan worship experiences, but even they are dogmatic about some things, such as the existence of God, or other doctrines. Ultimately, churches (read: especially the ministers who look after those churches) have a responsibility to share with the local assembly, community and even the world what their beliefs are. It's called the "Great Commission." In turn, members of the assembly have an equal responsibility to pass on their beliefs to others as well. Not doing so shows a lack of care for those who are lost.

Is there any difference between your "church system" and the system of the school principal? Is there something that makes your church system "Right" and something that makes his church system "wrong" and if so, what happens if "Bob" flips the "church coin" and inadvertently chooses the wrong church? Will his eternity be effected...and when you answer, please don't opt for the generic "I'm not the judge, that's God's job"? Your entire church system, and others, seem to judge by making such a HUGE deal out of certain non-essential (as I see them) so-called "doctrines."

A church doesn't save you; a church system doesn't save you; God saves you--plain and simple.

If we have a relationship with God, we'll want to obey Him (e.g., please Him). One of His instructions is to assemble together with other believers (exemplified by the early church), presumably for preaching, teaching, fellowship, and ministering to one another in "psalms, hymns & spiritual songs." Where a person assembles is not nearly as important as their personal obedience to God's Word. However, I think it's healthier to attend a church that is as close to following the Word of God as possible--especially if you're raising children, and you care what and how they are taught.

As for "Bob"...I don't care where he goes so much as how he pursues a personal relationship with God. An assembly of believers can strengthen that relationship, or tear it down, depending on where you go. The relationship comes first. You keep trying to put the church choice in first, and I don't really understand why. Anyone who asks me about Christianity is going to be directed to the Bible for answers--not to any particular church. I might suggest they visit our church if they're interested, (or the closest church that I feel teaches the truth) but what they need to do FIRST is start communicating with God and reading His Word.

Secondly, you stated that you are striving to live righteously. I'm wondering how you do that. Isn't our righteousness only from God? How are you able to produce your own righteousness? You sound like the person spoken of in Romans 10 and Colossians 2:

I believe we should do our best to live righteously (e.g., "doing right") Obviously human attempts to that end are ultimately going to fall short, which is why we all need grace. :-) However, an abundance of grace doesn't mean we should deliberately sin.

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

New International Version
Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness.Romans 10:3

New Living Translation
20 You have died with Christ, and he has set you free from the spiritual powers of this world. So why do you keep on following the rules of the world, such as, 21 “Don’t handle! Don’t taste! Don’t touch!”? 22 Such rules are mere human teachings about things that deteriorate as we use them. 23 These rules may seem wise because they require strong devotion, pious self-denial, and severe bodily discipline. But they provide no help in conquering a person’s evil desires.Colossians 2-20-23

The rules I follow are those found in the Word--I don't follow arbitrary rules of men unless I have a scriptural mandate to do so. I would think that following the Word would be beneficial to anyone--even someone who doesn't have a spiritual motivation.

Following rules doesn't change the heart, though--that was the problem with the law. A man could refrain from adultery, but think about it in his heart, which violated the spirit of the law, if not the letter. Jesus came to change that, to make the picture complete. That doesn't mean we do away with the commandments--just that now the whole *plate* will be clean, inside and out.

Matthew 23:26 "Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also."


We can handle outward righteousness. Many secular people live everyday without lying, cheating, stealing, murdering, etc. However, our inward righteousness can only be brought to pass by the hand of God in our lives.

[Sherri]

Ok, I'm sorry, but it blows my mind that this Woodward guy (I don't know him at all) is quoting all these things from occult books and articles on witchcraft/occultism to prove a point. Since when did we start researching the evil books for sermon material? Does this seem weird to anyone else but me?