The "Claim to the Name"

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by notofworks

What do you mean by the highlighted statement?

Calling on Christ, being baptized in His name, invokes his presence and He becomes involved in the baptism. He performs a spiritual circumcision while we are under the water being figuratively buried with Christ. And we become Christ's disciple when we are baptized in His name.

The insinuation was very clear that trinitarians don't value the name of Jesus because they haven't been baptized "In Jesus' Name."

The accusation is that Oneness value the name MORE since they are eager and willing to be baptized in the name of Jesus thereby exalting the name of Christ. I am not saying that Trinitarians do not value the name of Jesus. You have misunderstood me.

"Splashing through the waters of baptism" insinuates nothing except it is a descriptive way of describing baptism. Are you saying there was no splash of water when you were baptized?

I'm saying you are making a holy event profane with your glib remark by making it equal to taking a dip in a swimming pool.

But here you clearly say that those who are baptized "In Jesus' name" value the name of Jesus more than those who aren't. I'm sorry, Mizpeh, but there isn't a "non-oneness" believer who wouldn't hear that as being theologically and/or spiritually arrogant. Clearly, you see your standing in Christ as superior to that of others. I have a difficult time with that.

What else should I think if someone is unwilling to be baptized in the name of the Lord according to the word of God? Who's disciple are they anyways? Baptism is an initiation into becoming part of the body of Christ. Baptism is a burial with Christ. We associate ourselves with Jesus in baptism. Why would you not baptize in His name?

As for being arrogant or having a superior standing, I simply don't see how you can call yourself a disciple of Christ's and not be baptized in His name except it be because of ignorance of the word of God, or because one is blindly following the traditions of men, or outright disobedience. I'm not sure how that makes me arrogant. I think being baptized in Jesus' name shows a respect for the name of Christ and that I am following Christ as His disciple. If you value the name of Christ, why don't you baptize in His name like the apostles did? Whose disciple are you anyways?

[Falla39]

Originally Posted by notofworks

That's the expected cop-out. So, let me approach this from a different angle. Do you believe that adherence to the "Oneness message" is the only way to salvation, that adherence to salvation the Acts 2:38 way is the only way to heaven?

What do you "think"!

Jesus said except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he can't
see (comprehend) or inherit the kingdom. Not only can he not comprehend
it, he can't get into it!
I was not in any way trying to copout. There is a lot more dialogue than
simply saying yes or no.

If a nest of wild hornet were brought to this room
And the critters allowed to go free.
You would not need urging to make yourself scarce,
You'd want to get out, don't you see.

He will not compel you to go, oh no;
He will not compel you to go. He will
Not compel you to go gainst your will,
He'll just make you willing to go.

Therefore judge nothing before the time
He's not through with me yet.
He's still working on me.
How bout you!

Falla39

[soldoutochrist]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Yes, and I get suspicious when I hear our Oneness churches changing the words, because somehow we can't use biblical language to describe God anymore. I've heard it MULTIPLE times now. Shows dishonesty.

I heard it at a District Campmeeting once as
The Lord our God is one
In place of that line. In my humble opinion, if the theology and lyrics bother you that much that you have to change the words, don't sing the song.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Godhead means what?

My bible says the fullness of Deity dwells in Christ in bodily form.

That means something different than what I was taught when I first started this. That is incarnational. God became one of us, rather than indwelling, God was inside one of us.

But since "godhead" has no real definite meaning it seems, then it can mean whatever the hearer wants.

You know Mizpeh, a lot of Trinitarians don't realize this but when they say Modalism is a heresy they don't realize it was a Trinitarian heresy.

The so called heresy was not a rejection of the unity of Father, Son and Spirit but a rejection that Father, Son and Spirit were three distinct persons.

Andrew Urshan I am told still referred to what he believed as a Trinity, just not one of three different persons.

So here is the question, does Oneness believe in the Unity of Father, Spirit and Son or is there a division?

It depends if you consider Father, Spirit, and Son to be three distinct persons. I'm cool with an economic Trinity.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

It depends if you consider Father, Spirit, and Son to be three distinct persons. I'm cool with an economic Trinity.

That's my point, the song is not necessarily anti-oneness

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

BTW this might be a little off topic but I was actually thinking if of this last night. I remember listening to a well known evangelist on tape, a service I think I was at but was listening to it again.

Over and over and over the Evangelist,during alter call, would say "In Jesus name, In Jesus name, In Jesus name" and from time to time you could hear an emphasis "In Jesus NAME"

And I think there is more a reason to say "In Jesus name" for the sake of hearers to know we are doing something in that name, but I don't think we have to keep saying "In Jesus name" in order to have the authority we are given.

If something isn't happening, I doubt saying "in Jesus name" one more time is going to make it happen. We need faith. We need prayer (preparatory) and fasting (preparatory).

We have men that are used of in the gifts and great faith, but I think this lack of understanding is bad for the organization. It's the same problem with the Holy Magic Hair issue.

I want to relate something I read in the Winds of God. I can't quote it verbatim but the book was talking about Asuza street and how it was made up of different groups. It noted that the group that struggled the most to actually receive this blessing (baptism/speaking in tongues) were the Holiness groups. They did receive it, but it was always more of a struggle for them.

I wonder if we have that same problem. How come a group that boats of the supernatural so much does not emphasize the gifts more?

We don't have a name. We have authority and if we really were the people of the name we'd understand and emphasize that more. Instead we've backpeddled again into the works mentality. The whole hair issue is a works mentality. It's ironic but I heard LS say once that people got the Holy Ghost in our ranks not because of us but INSPITE of us. LS was one of the biggest "name" preachers I knew who also emphasized the gifts of the Spirit and YOU operating in them, not merely women.

He encouraged us to seek God like he did, in prayer, fasting and faith. We've backpeddled from those early days it seems to a stronger emphasis on obedience and uncut hair as a means not just to salvation but the supernatural works of God in our midst. However that seems to have been the natural progression of a works based system.

We have authority through His name.

And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. Luke 10:17

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I want to relate something I read in the Winds of God. I can't quote it verbatim but the book was talking about Asuza street and how it was made up of different groups. It noted that the group that struggled the most to actually receive this blessing (baptism/speaking in tongues) were the Holiness groups. They did receive it, but it was always more of a struggle for them.

I wonder if we have that same problem. How come a group that boats of the supernatural so much does not emphasize the gifts more?

It would be my opinion that many (I don't say all), but many Conservative people recognize or dwell on their faults more than anyone. I heard an older preacher say that of all the things that hindered a person growing in God is self-condemnation. He said it's the hardest thing to break in a person's life and that was the biggest thing he confronted in all his years of pastoring. It is hard for a person to forgive themselves.

I know as a former Catholic that saying a Rosary, which I didn't realize at the time, seems to subtly make you feel never quite forgiven and it's like you are begging and begging for forgiveness. The prayers the Priest assigns you after Confessional, same thing. You have to say so many to make things right with God.

When I was baptized in Jesus name the preacher asked me if I felt forgiven and I told him, "No." I couldn't believe that God could forgive me for all of the things I had done.

Now that I have His Spirit and He speaks to me, it's different. But, still, that self-condemnation is always underlying in some part of my heart. My husband will say, "Stop acting like a Catholic!" LOL!

[Michael The Disciple]

When I was a Trin I valued Jesus name as much as I do now. I think there are Trins that are the same way. Nevertheless the Oneness doctrine is true and Trinitarianism is false. Whoever comes to this light will appreciate Jesus (the person) more than they did before.

If you wish to see arrogance come into a Paltalk room with me sometime when Im teaching on Oneness. I have been told Im going to Hell numerous times by Trins because I believe in Oneness.

Having said that I hate arrogance wherever the source especially among Oneness. Myself I dont think its arrogant to know that I am in the truth on this or some other issue. Truth is something to rejoice over not be ashamed of.

The apostle John said:

3: For I rejoiced greatly, when the brethren came and testified of the truth that is in thee, even as thou walkest in the truth.
4: I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth. 3 John 3-4

Oneness does not have a monopoly on loving Jesus name but for sure a deeper understanding of who he is.

[ManOfWord]

Originally Posted by notofworks

I'm not sure what I can do except chuckle. Exhibit A in theological arrogance. Oh well, at least you're honest about your superiority.

But this is validation of what NotforSale said about war. How can there ever be peace within the Christian Community of our world with attitudes like this? My goodness.

I guess this is why I was never able to assimilate into the "ex-upc" culture. For most, it was just the upc with no dress code. Same exclusivity, different clothes.

It has nothing to do with arrogance or exclusivity whatsoever and I stated nothing about superiority. Actually, if you go back and read what I did say, I said that Trinitarians have more of a handle on justification by faith than oneness folks do. So I guess you'll ignore the superiority I gave them and I'll take your personal attack calling me theologically arrogant.

Those who have a "handle" on the gifts are not superior to those who don't. They're just in a different place. We're all there to some degree and that has nothing to do with who is better.

Like I've said before....it seems that no matter what I say or how I say it you'll try to pick a fight. I won't return your personal attack but I've explained what I meant in the most simple terms I could. I take responsibility if you didn't understand it.

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

EVERY WAR has a religious undertone? I don't think so. Fighting, according to James, whether on a small scale or a large scale is caused by ungodly desires. They may disguise it in the name of God but in truth it is a lust for power and material wealth.

From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war James 4:1-2

What is your definition of "religion"? There is such a thing as pure religion.

I guess you haven't read about the Middle East lately. This "Hotbed" of the World always elevates World tension when they start slinging bombs at one another because they are fighting over "My Dad".

Let's not forget the Old Testament. Blood was everywhere in the name of God.

Look at 911. Who was supposably responsible for for that? How about Pearl Harbor? Religion was the very fiber of the kamikaze, and the Emperor was God. Even Hilter had the backing of the Catholic Church.

England tromped from one Country to the next, binding by battle with the Mother Church in her craw. Today, Ireland has blood in her streets over Religion. Pakistan and India have nukes pointed at each other. Iran is ready to send Israel into oblivion. The Turks and the Kurds. Muslims and Christians. Africa is hallowed by gorrilla and tribal warfare and corruption, fueled by Religion.

Every corner of our Globe is covered with graves because of Religion, and most Wars are started by Countries who claim, "God is with us".