Are Trinitarians Saved? - Page 5

pelathais · #41 05-19-2010, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAII

Dom is going to get a VIP suite in Heaven with the rest of the us four and no more crowd while the rest of us enjoy the entire campus.

LOL.

Evang.Benincasa · #42 05-19-2010, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pelathais

And they, falling on their knees declare that they agree with you?

They don't see it as a Trinty.

DAII · #43 05-19-2010, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

They don't see it as a Trinty.

Neither do JW's, Mormons, Unitarians or atheists.

And yet other than a quibble over the word persons you have more in common with Trinnies as you and James White believe in the cornerstone of Christian faith ... the Deity of Jesus and the Incarnation for our Redemption.

Evang.Benincasa · #44 05-19-2010, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAII

Did you watch the video, EB? Simply asking if you can provide quotes to the assertions you've made about Cal.

Cal? Gee whiz, you are on first name basis? Anyway, I took time answering your post because I had to wait for Dr. Beisner to get finished with his church meeting and call me back. I asked him if he still believed that Oneness teaching was heresy, and that it would harm anyone's salvation? What he told me was that what he believed when he debated Brother Urshan, and Sabin, is stronger now than it was all those years ago. When he asked what prompted me to call, I told him that someone had mentioned that he no longer believed as strongly as he believed back in the 70s. He laughed, and said all anyone had to do is look at his web site and see he still sells his book, "Jesus Only Churches." He also recomened that if anyone was in a church that believed in Oneness that he suggest they find a church that believed orthodox Trinty teachings.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAII

In the video, he demonstrates a lot more tolerant view than the wishy-washy NAU ... whose father, Andrew D and the rest of the pioneering OP leadership from Goss, Witherspoon, Ewart, Clyde Haney, SG Norris ... et al believed them to be saved and ... did not hold the Apostolic jihadist view of this present generation.

He wasn't tolerant tonight, maybe when he converts to One God Jesus name, he will be.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

DAII · #45 05-19-2010, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Cal? Gee whiz, you are on first name basis? Anyway, I took time answering your post because I had to wait for Dr. Beisner to get finished with his church meeting and call me back. I asked him if he still believed that Oneness teaching was heresy, and that it would harm anyone's salvation? What he told me was that what he believed when he debated Brother Urshan, and Sabin, is stronger now than it was all those years ago. When he asked what prompted me to call, I told him that someone had mentioned that he no longer believed as strongly as he believed back in the 70s. He laughed, and said all anyone had to do is look at his web site and see he still sells his book, "Jesus Only Churches." He also recomened that if anyone was in a church that believed in Oneness that he suggest they find a church that believed orthodox Trinty teachings.

He wasn't tolerant tonight, maybe when he converts to One God Jesus name, he will be.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

Glad you made the time to call but you're obfuscating .... he believed it was heretical in the 70's but the question and fact is ... is that he makes allowance for salvation as has most of the pioneering Oneness leadership and YOU DON'T ....

Evang.Benincasa · #46 05-19-2010, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

EB, thanks for the reply. Based on your observations, it is obviously true that many Trinitarians consider the Trinity essential for salvation. I would say there are also many who do not. I received a letter from a popular ministry group on the subject, as we discussed godhead. They believed because we accepted Jesus as Divine and human, as the Son of God, to not be heretical (although they were adamant we were in error).

After speaking with Dr E. Calvin Beisner tonight, he believes 2Co 11:4 applies to us that are Apostolic Jesus Name Pentecostals.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

"The Faith" is a connection to the Gospel. Everything that Jesus said. "I am my Father am One." That He is the Messiah, God in flesh.

Yet, the orthodox Trinitarian sees the above statement as meaning that Jesus and the Father are united, and not literally one in the same. Jesus (to the Trinitarian) just has a portion of God's essence, as does the Father and the Holy Ghost. Three separate vessels all sharing the divine essence, like a bucket of water being poured into three separate glasses, while the water comes from one source, the three contianers don't connect to other, and are each their own contianer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Paul's mention of "another Jesus" (2 Corinthians 11:4), is also in the context of "another Gospel" and "another spirit." His detractors were either Judaizers, which had less to do with godhead than it did salvation by and through the Law, or they were Gnostics, who didn't believe Jesus to be fully human at all, thus denying the reality that He was the Son of God.

i would lean more to they being Judaizers and they were disputing the role of Jesus to God the almighty Father. Since Paul is speaking about ministers supplanting his churches, we see he is dealing with authority. Jesus is the head of the Church as Body, and there was only one who is that head and that One is Jesus. The Judaizers were placing themselves in the position of Christ, and making themselves the head, and lords over the people in the Body of Christ. Paul, brings to their attention, that if anyone preaches another Jesus, Gospel, or another spirit, they were to reject it, and they were to be led by the Spirit of Christ. Orthodox Trinitarians preach and teach a subordinate Jesus, who is not the Father of us all, and not the Spirit dwelling inside us.

Thanks

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

DAII · #47 05-19-2010, 07:29 PM

BTW, I could've save you the cell phone minutes and nervous apprehension ... and tell you where he stands on the salvation of those who adapt Oneness PAJC theology, Dominic ...

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/cpoint2.html

Evang.Benincasa · #48 05-19-2010, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAII

BTW, I could've save you the cell phone minutes and nervous apprehension ... and tell you where he stands on the salvation of those who adapt Oneness PAJC theology, Dominic ...

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/cpoint2.html

He was very cordial, everything went well in the discussion, and you were wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAII

Beisner changed his position that Oneness are lost since the late 70's?

You were wrong Dan. "Cal" believes that anyone under the teaching of Oneness needs to split camp and hot foot it over to an orthodox Trinity church.

Ask your question again about the Pentecostals?

Thank you

DAII · #49 05-19-2010, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

He was very cordial, everything went well in the discussion, and you were wrong.

You were wrong Dan. "Cal" believes that anyone under the teaching of Oneness needs to split camp and hot foot it over to an orthodox Trinity church.

Ask your question again about the Pentecostals?

Thank you

Still obfuscating... you were wrong in saying he believes all Oneness folks are lost/not saved ...

Suggesting one leaves a movement one thinks to be in error is still a far cry from your RADICALIST POSITION IN SHUTTING HEAVEN'S DOOR.

Pathetic. Learn to compartmentalize, analyze and listen. I think you're saved even when you believe Josephus account of 70 A.D. to be canon ... and hold to the heretical view of full preterism

Evang.Benincasa · #50 05-19-2010, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAII

Still obfuscating... you were wrong in saying he believes all Oneness folks are lost ...

Again, he believes that Oneness is another Jesus meaning that it is heretical and is what Paul was speaking about in 2 Cor 11:4. He went further to tell me that if anyone is in any kind of Oneness (as he put it) Jesus Only church they needed to LEAVE. Dan, you were wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAII

Suggesting one leaves a movement one thinks to be in error is still a far cry from your RADICALIST POSITION IN SHUTTING HEAVEN'S DOOR.

No, Dan, not just a movement, but those who teach Oneness.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAII

Pathetic. I think you're saved even when you believe Josephus account of 70 A.D. to be canon ... and hold to the heretical view of full preterism

Dan I believe Josephus to be canon? You just make it up as you go along.

Heretical view? You should talk, you can't even explain, let alone pronouce eschatology.

Anyway how's the wife, you have any children on the way?

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com