Let's talk about Baptism.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by pelathais

I used to sit and watch as Catholic apologists had Oneness Pentecostals for lunch. It was amazing. The OP's were completely confounded right out of the gate.

My favorite - and this is a good one for UltraCon and Mr. Cox - How can you guys claim to be "apostolics" if you don't even use the Bible the apostles used?

Roman Catholics at least use the same OT as the apostles.

How many quotes from the Apocrypha are found in the writings of the Apostles that we call our New Testament?

Please list each one separately with both the OT (apocryphal book name, chapter and verse) and the corresponding NT (canonical book name, chapter and verse).

[Apocrypha]

Originally Posted by Sam

How many quotes from the Apocrypha are found in the writings of the Apostles that we call our New Testament?

Please list each one separately with both the OT (apocryphal book name, chapter and verse) and the corresponding NT (canonical book name, chapter and verse).

This is a interesting chart from a anti-christian website.

http://www.answering-christianity.com/lost_books.htm

The Lost Books of the Bible

Books Mentioned, But Not Found, In The Bible
There are twenty-two books mentioned in the Bible, but not included. The variation is due to possible double mentions using differing names for the same book.

Book of the Covenant
Exodus 24:7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient.
There are those that believe the Book of the Covenant is found in Exodus chapters 20 through 23. There are no authoritative sources for this text.

Book of the Wars of the Lord
Numbers 21:14 Wherefore it is said in the book of the wars of the Lord, What he did in the Red sea, and in the brooks of Arnon,
Certain sources believe that this is to be found by drawing text from several Old Testament books. There are no authoritative sources for this text.

Book of Jasher Here We have the entire book on this site Here
Joshua 10:13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.
2 Samuel 1:18 (Also he bade them teach the children of Judah the use of the bow: behold, it is written in the book of Jasher.)

The Manner of the Kingdom / Book of Statutes
1 Samuel 10:25 Then Samuel told the people the manner of the kingdom, and wrote it in a book, and laid it up before the Lord. And Samuel sent all the people away, every man to his house.

Book of Samuel the Seer
1 Chronicles 29:29 Now the acts of David the king, first and last, behold, they are written in the book of Samuel the seer, and in the book of Nathan the prophet, and in the book of Gad the seer,

Nathan the Prophet
1 Chronicles 29:29 Now the acts of David the king, first and last, behold, they are written in the book of Samuel the seer, and in the book of Nathan the prophet, and in the book of Gad the seer,
2 Chronicles 9:29 Now the rest of the acts of Solomon, first and last, are they not written in the book of Nathan the prophet, and in the prophecy of Ahijah the Shilonite, and in the visions of Iddo the seer against Jeroboam the son of Nebat?

Acts of Solomon
1 Kings 11:41 And the rest of the acts of Solomon, and all that he did, and his wisdom, are they not written in the book of the acts of Solomon?

Shemaiah the Prophet
2 Chronicles 12:15 Now the acts of Rehoboam, first and last, are they not written in the book of Shemaiah the prophet, and of Iddo the seer concerning genealogies? And there were wars between Rehoboam and Jeroboam continually.

Prophecy of Abijah
2 Chronicles 9:29 Now the rest of the acts of Solomon, first and last, are they not written in the book of Nathan the prophet, and in the prophecy of Ahijah the Shilonite, and in the visions of Iddo the seer against Jeroboam the son of Nebat?

Story of Prophet Iddo
2 Chronicles 13:22 And the rest of the acts of Abijah, and his ways, and his sayings, are written in the story of the prophet Iddo.

Visions of Iddo the Seer
2 Chronicles 9:29 Now the rest of the acts of Solomon, first and last, are they not written in the book of Nathan the prophet, and in the prophecy of Ahijah the Shilonite, and in the visions of Iddo the seer against Jeroboam the son of Nebat?

Iddo Genealogies
2 Chronicles 12:15 Now the acts of Rehoboam, first and last, are they not written in the book of Shemaiah the prophet, and of Iddo the seer concerning genealogies? And there were wars between Rehoboam and Jeroboam continually.

Book of Jehu
2 Chronicles 20:34 Now the rest of the acts of Jehoshaphat, first and last, behold, they are written in the book of Jehu the son of Hanani, who is mentioned in the book of the kings of Israel.

Sayings of the Seers Here
2 Chronicles 33:19 His prayer also, and how God was intreated of him, and all his sin, and his trespass, and the places wherein he built high places, and set up groves and graven images, before he was humbled: behold, they are written among the sayings of the seers.

Book of Enoch Here
Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Book of Gad the Seer
1 Chronicles 29:29 Now the acts of David the king, first and last, behold, they are written in the book of Samuel the seer, and in the book of Nathan the prophet, and in the book of Gad the seer,

Epistle to Corinth Here
1 Corinthians 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:

Epistle to the Ephesians (Missing)
Ephesians 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Epistle from Laodicea to the Colossians (Missing)
Colossians 4:16 And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea.

Nazarene Prophecy Source
Matthew 2:23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene

Acts of Uziah
2 Chronicles 26:22 Now the rest of the acts of Uzziah, first and last, did Isaiah the prophet, the son of Amoz, write.

The Annals of King David
1 Chronicles 27:24 Joab son of Zeruiah began to count the men but did not finish. Wrath came on Israel on account of this numbering, and the number was not entered in the book of the annals of King David.

Jude, the Missing Epistle
Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Apocrypha

Book of the Covenant
Exodus 24:7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient.
There are those that believe the Book of the Covenant is found in Exodus chapters 20 through 23. There are no authoritative sources for this text.

I would not include this one in the list. As you noted from some, it's just the laws already noted in scripture. It is the record of the LAW in the covenant God gave on Sinai.

Jude, the Missing Epistle
Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

This is another one I would not list. Jude did not say he wrote another book, but was going to do so, when the Lord stopped him as he felt led to write about defending the faith instead. Maybe that is what is meant by the MISSING, though. Missing since it was never written.

[Apocrypha]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I would not include this one in the list. As you noted from some, it's just the laws already noted in scripture. It is the record of the LAW in the covenant God gave on Sinai.



This is another one I would not list. Jude did not say he wrote another book, but was going to do so, when the Lord stopped him as he felt led to write about defending the faith instead. Maybe that is what is meant by the MISSING, though. Missing since it was never written.

Jude does direct references to The Assumption of Moses and Enoch 1, part 1 The book of the Watchers.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Apocrypha

Jude does direct references to The Assumption of Moses and Enoch 1, part 1 The book of the Watchers.

I was speaking about the book Jude stated he was going to write himself.

But how do we know about the other books, though? Are these books allegedly ones that have been found and contain words Jude referenced? If so, who is to say someone did not notice some phrases Jude mentioned from other sources, and concocted a book of gobble-de-gook and inserted those phrases to make the books appear authentic?

A genuine book may have been genuine and lost because it did not concern anyone of any generation, as the rest of the Bible does. And if found, it would contain nothing we had to know in order to serve the Lord that another book of the bible did not mention anyway.

[Sam]

from pages 255-258 of Bro. Segrave’s book on 2 Peter and Jude:

Verse 14. At this point, commentators generally conclude that Jude quoted from the pseudepigraphical book, I Enoch, written during the early first century B.C. (c. 95 B.C.). I Enoch was well-known among the Jewish people during the first century A.D....In some cases, Jewish tradition accurately preserved information not found in the Old Testament Scriptures.

This would not be the only place where the New Testament legitimizes Jewish traditions not found in the Old Testament....

Not only did Paul endorse Jewish tradition when it was true and suited his purpose; he also quoted pagan poets when their statements were true and useful. In Acts 17:28, Paul quoted Cleanthes and Aratus. In I Corinthians 15:33, he quoted Menander. In Titus 1:12, Paul quoted Epimenides.

It is not problematic that inspired writers would quote uninspired writers. Neither should we think that by quoting someone, inspired writers conferred inspiration on the person they quoted. The writers of Scripture, though inspired by God, were people of their times. They used illustrations and information well-known to their readers to make a point, just as writers and speakers do today. Inspiration means that what they wrote has authoritative status; even if it includes material from noninspired sources, it is accurate and trustworthy....

Although Jude never identifies I Enoch as Scripture, it does declare that Enoch prophesied. To prophesy is to speak authoritatively on behalf of God. (See Exodus 7:1.) Holy men uttered many prophecies during the Old
Testament era that were never written down by those who uttered them; this is one of them.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I was speaking about the book Jude stated he was going to write himself.

But how do we know about the other books, though? Are these books allegedly ones that have been found and contain words Jude referenced? If so, who is to say someone did not notice some phrases Jude mentioned from other sources, and concocted a book of gobble-de-gook and inserted those phrases to make the books appear authentic?

A genuine book may have been genuine and lost because it did not concern anyone of any generation, as the rest of the Bible does. And if found, it would contain nothing we had to know in order to serve the Lord that another book of the bible did not mention anyway.

The Book of Enoch is known by history and other writers who predate the writings of the NT. The fragments of Enoch found at Qumran dated from about 200 BC. This would render your "gobble-de-gook" hypothesis invalid. The fragments are extensive enough to allow us to see that the Essenes used a version of Enoch that was more extensive than the Ethiopian ones that were heretofore the oldest sources of this work.

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by Sam

How many quotes from the Apocrypha are found in the writings of the Apostles that we call our New Testament?

Please list each one separately with both the OT (apocryphal book name, chapter and verse) and the corresponding NT (canonical book name, chapter and verse).

How many OT books aren't referenced in the NT? Does that mean they shouldn't be included in the bible....or used?

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Sam

How many quotes from the Apocrypha are found in the writings of the Apostles that we call our New Testament?

Please list each one separately with both the OT (apocryphal book name, chapter and verse) and the corresponding NT (canonical book name, chapter and verse).

How many quotes from the Masoretic Text of the OT appear in the NT? Please list each one separately with both the OT verse and the corresponding NT verse.

And then... how many quotes of the OT Septuagint can you find quoted in the NT? I have a database on the desktop computer that I need to transfer over to a thumb drive.

In any case, if your OT isn't the Septuagint like the apostles and later like St. Jerome used to create the Vulgate translation, then you are NOT using the OT that the apostles used.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by pelathais

...
In any case, if your OT isn't the Septuagint like the apostles and later like St. Jerome used to create the Vulgate translation, then you are NOT using the OT that the apostles used.

I'm not disagreeing with that. That's a reason why OT quotes in our NT read differently than they do in our OT if you go back and check. Our OT is based on the Masoretic text whereas the apostles and early Christian writers used the LXX.

And, I realize that the LXX (the text used by first century Christina writers) contained some Apocryphal books.

But my question was, how many times (chapter and verse) are there quotes from the Apocrypha in our NT?

I have a 1611 KJV. At Hebrews 11:35 there is a marginal note referencing 2 Mac 7:7. 1 and 2 Maccabees are included in that 1611 KJV. The reference is to the mother and sons who would not accept deliverance by denouncing Judaism because they looked forward to a resurrection.

Paul's questioning whether it would be better to continue living or dying in Philippians 1:23 is similar to Tobit 2:6

The instruction in James 5 about confessing sin and receiving prayer for healing is similar to Ecclesiasticus 38

These instances happen to come to mind off the top of my head. There may be more.

The reason for my question as to where these Apocryphal passages from the OT are quoted in the NT was to ascertain if there is a comprehensive cross reference type list available. I personally am not real familiar with some of the Apocryphal books. My Jerusalem Bible and my NEB have less of them than my NRSV