For those that left the UPC...

[glorians]

Every church, whether oneness or trinitarian, protestant or catholics, islam or christian, believers or non-believers, atheist or theist... ALL HAVE STANDARDS AND RULES IN THEIR ORGANIZATIONS, SECTS, DENOMINATION OR GROUP....


There's a big difference when u say, I don't agree with such standard VIA I can't stand (obey) the standards anymore......


search within your heart which one is which then it'll be easier for you to now ur real state.

first things first.. then, i'll move on.....

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by glorians

Every church, whether oneness or trinitarian, protestant or catholics, islam or christian, believers or non-believers, atheist or theist... ALL HAVE STANDARDS AND RULES IN THEIR ORGANIZATIONS, SECTS, DENOMINATION OR GROUP....


There's a big difference when u say, I don't agree with such standard VIA I can't stand (obey) the standards anymore......


search within your heart which one is which then it'll be easier for you to now ur real state.

first things first.. then, i'll move on.....

A work sponsored dress code ends at work. A church sponsored dress code ends at church.

[glorians]

Originally Posted by jfrog

A work sponsored dress code ends at work. A church sponsored dress code ends at church.

Then you should have brought that up with your local pastor..

I work as a military, dress up in a military clothing, but when church and when opportunity permits, I obey what my church standard is.. It doesnt have to be biblical in that manner... i dont see anything bad against clothing standards but moreso, i become more disciplined and if i can follow the rules of the armed forces to wear what i must wear whether it's 100 lbs of extra load, i can't complain. i gave my loyalty to the state, to the service, to the uniform... why can't you render that honor and loyalty to your church? moreso, if moslem women can follow that strict eye only (to be seen) mode of standard, if they can do that for Allah, I can do that for Jesus... (this is to point out that adhere to the standard of your church or get out of it! but before you get out of that church bcoz of its standards, gauge your self what state are you in your spirituality or youre just a sick brethren who's sick and tired to follow rules..... (im not saying in any abrupt manner but trying to point out something in this regard)



The other aspect of this is you dont believe in the standard to be biblical... in that sense, you dont have to leave your church if u think they are wrong, if u really love them, lead them... study with them, discuss with them, argue with them, debate with them.... but if u think oneness err in this area and u just left them for this reason, where is the love yo?! i dont know?! and trust me... you'll see in other churches that people argue in other different standards of their churches whether it be in regard with money, leadership, choir uniform, carpet color, color of paint of the church, etc.. etc.. hope u get my point. ;-)

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by glorians

Then you should have brought that up with your local pastor..

I work as a military, dress up in a military clothing, but when church and when opportunity permits, I obey what my church standard is.. It doesnt have to be biblical in that manner... i dont see anything bad against clothing standards but moreso, i become more disciplined and if i can follow the rules of the armed forces to wear what i must wear whether it's 100 lbs of extra load, i can't complain. i gave my loyalty to the state, to the service, to the uniform... why can't you render that honor and loyalty to your church? moreso, if moslem women can follow that strict eye only (to be seen) mode of standard, if they can do that for Allah, I can do that for Jesus... (this is to point out that adhere to the standard of your church or get out of it! but before you get out of that church bcoz of its standards, gauge your self what state are you in your spirituality or youre just a sick brethren who's sick and tired to follow rules..... (im not saying in any abrupt manner but trying to point out something in this regard)



The other aspect of this is you dont believe in the standard to be biblical... in that sense, you dont have to leave your church if u think they are wrong, if u really love them, lead them... study with them, discuss with them, argue with them, debate with them.... but if u think oneness err in this area and u just left them for this reason, where is the love yo?! i dont know?! and trust me... you'll see in other churches that people argue in other different standards of their churches whether it be in regard with money, leadership, choir uniform, carpet color, color of paint of the church, etc.. etc.. hope u get my point. ;-)

I think most people want to see some sort of "eternal principle" behind their "church loyalties." Your service to our nation is commendable and from what you've said, it does appear to be based on noble principles.

When it comes to church I have always wanted a similar - even a higher! - set of principles to guide me. The teachings of the Bible itself provide that and anything that adds to or takes away from the Biblical standards strikes me as being profane.

When we had a large VA hospital in town it was a very common thing for the ladies in the service to approach their pastors here and seek some sort of waiver or understanding for their military requirements. With the closure of that VA hospital and a nearby Air Force base we don't have so many folks in the active duty service around any more so it's no longer such an issue.

My thought is, if you can't carry over your "heaven or hell" religious principles into the military life, then you probably should not have joined the military. If these are not "heaven or hell" issues for you - then what's your point?

Just have a female service member show up to a Sunday church service in BDU's or slacks of any kind. See if you aren't treated as a hell bound backslider. If the pants send you to hell at church, they will certainly send you to hell on base.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by glorians

Then you should have brought that up with your local pastor..

I work as a military, dress up in a military clothing, but when church and when opportunity permits, I obey what my church standard is.. It doesnt have to be biblical in that manner... i dont see anything bad against clothing standards but moreso, i become more disciplined and if i can follow the rules of the armed forces to wear what i must wear whether it's 100 lbs of extra load, i can't complain. i gave my loyalty to the state, to the service, to the uniform... why can't you render that honor and loyalty to your church? moreso, if moslem women can follow that strict eye only (to be seen) mode of standard, if they can do that for Allah, I can do that for Jesus... (this is to point out that adhere to the standard of your church or get out of it! but before you get out of that church bcoz of its standards, gauge your self what state are you in your spirituality or youre just a sick brethren who's sick and tired to follow rules..... (im not saying in any abrupt manner but trying to point out something in this regard)

The other aspect of this is you dont believe in the standard to be biblical... in that sense, you dont have to leave your church if u think they are wrong, if u really love them, lead them... study with them, discuss with them, argue with them, debate with them.... but if u think oneness err in this area and u just left them for this reason, where is the love yo?! i dont know?! and trust me... you'll see in other churches that people argue in other different standards of their churches whether it be in regard with money, leadership, choir uniform, carpet color, color of paint of the church, etc.. etc.. hope u get my point. ;-)

I'll respond to your second paragraph first. All the guilt trip stuff I see sickens me. I mean that in the most general sense possible. The people who leave or think of leaving are constantly asked, "What's wrong with you, couldn't you make your whole church see the truth." or "What's wrong with you, wheres your love?" or "What's wrong with you, couldn't you keep the standards anyway even if you didn't believe in them?" or "What's wrong with you, can't the keep the standards for Jesus?" I'll even give a scripture now. Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

There's another problem with your second paragraph also. Your trying to compare carpet color to the standards that people claim are derived from the bible. Some even came up with a special slogan for those standards; "holiness or hell". So, no you can't compare opinions about where money should go, who should be in leadership, choir uniform, carpet color, or paint color to these "holiness or hell" standards.

So in case its not already clear, let me enlighten you on why someone would leave over the standards. They don't leave the church because they don't love God or even the people there. The real reason is quite simple really. It's because they get sick and tired of hearing something constantly preached as biblical that they don't believe is biblical. They get sick and tired of seeing others looked down upon for not following what they believe are manmade standards.

Now as for your first paragraph, let me begin with a question. If the standards aren't biblical then why should the church preach them? You answered that in part already, you said it's because of discipline. But discipline from heaven is not in standards its in prayer and fasting.

One other thing. You can keep the standards for Jesus if you wish. I'll watch others do something for Jesus too. I'll watch them not keep the standards. And heres another scripture for you. Romans 14:22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

[Falla39]

Originally Posted by jfrog

I'll respond to your second paragraph first. All the guilt trip stuff I see sickens me. I mean that in the most general sense possible. The people who leave or think of leaving are constantly asked, "What's wrong with you, couldn't you make your whole church see the truth." or "What's wrong with you, wheres your love?" or "What's wrong with you, couldn't you keep the standards anyway even if you didn't believe in them?" or "What's wrong with you, can't the keep the standards for Jesus?" I'll even give a scripture now. Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

There's another problem with your second paragraph also. Your trying to compare carpet color to the standards that people claim are derived from the bible. Some even came up with a special slogan for those standards; "holiness or hell". So, no you can't compare opinions about where money should go, who should be in leadership, choir uniform, carpet color, or paint color to these "holiness or hell" standards.

So in case its not already clear, let me enlighten you on why someone would leave over the standards. They don't leave the church because they don't love God or even the people there. The real reason is quite simple really. It's because they get sick and tired of hearing something constantly preached as biblical that they don't believe is biblical. They get sick and tired of seeing others looked down upon for not following what they believe are manmade standards.

Now as for your first paragraph, let me begin with a question. If the standards aren't biblical then why should the church preach them? You answered that in part already, you said it's because of discipline. But discipline from heaven is not in standards its in prayer and fasting.

One other thing. You can keep the standards for Jesus if you wish. I'll watch others do something for Jesus too. I'll watch them not keep the standards. And heres another scripture for you. Romans 14:22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

If the Word of God had been put into little hearts and minds more and
livestyles lived before them while they were growing up, perhaps there
would have been a better understanding. As newborn babes desire the
sincere milk of the Word. I wonder how many children were not fed the
sincere milk of the Word that they might grow thereby. Today it is more
"popular" to just feed the newborn "formula". The makers of the formula
think their product is better than the God-given milk. (no offense to those
mothers who, for whatever reason could not nurse their precious baby.)

I know of young women who just didn't want to breast feed their baby
and they have that choice. Lot of less-best choices have been made in
many ways. Convenience has become in many cases, the norm. Children
with working mothers, eat fast food, junk food and now it is openly recog-
nized that overweight children has become a national problem as well as
a health problem. Wake Up, America, wake up, church, it's later than you
think! Growing up without being fed the Word of God in the home and in
some cases, the church. Don't blame the church if she didn't feed your kids
what you thought was right. Spiritual or natural. You're the parents. Don't
expect the preacher to work a miracle of what was our God-given responsi-
bility, and we blew it. Grow Up!

Falla39

[SeekingOne]

Originally Posted by jfrog

So in case its not already clear, let me enlighten you on why someone would leave over the standards. They don't leave the church because they don't love God or even the people there. The real reason is quite simple really. It's because they get sick and tired of hearing something constantly preached as biblical that they don't believe is biblical. They get sick and tired of seeing others looked down upon for not following what they believe are manmade standards.

I will add that one might also want to attend a church that is not guilty of judging others following Christ, just because they feel following standards and men are more important than the greatest commandment. We want to attend a church that loves as Jesus loves, and have a place to bring people that we lead to the Lord.

[noeticknight]

Originally Posted by jfrog

A work sponsored dress code ends at work. A church sponsored dress code ends at church.

Not entirely. One main difference between work-related dress codes and those pertaining to church is asceticism. Asceticism can be (and often is) practiced by any group of people (or individual) with or without any kind of spiritual motivation. That is why the Apostle Paul warned of this: "Do not handle [this], Do not taste [that], Do not even touch [them], Referring to things all of which perish with being used. To do this is to follow human precepts and doctrines. Such [practices] have indeed the outward appearance [that popularly passes] for wisdom, in promoting self-imposed rigor of devotion and delight in self-humiliation and severity of discipline of the body, but they are of no value in checking the indulgence of the flesh (the lower nature). [Instead, they do not honor God but serve only to indulge the flesh."] (Colossians 2:21-23)

In other words, wearing a short-sleeve shirt makes me no less holy than eating pork hot dogs. No offense Epley.