LOST???????????????????

[SDG]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Does only believing the gospel save us or does believing the gospel and obeying the gospel save us?

Does this passage of scripture from Romans 4 support what you believe saves us?

3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."
4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN,
AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.
8 "BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT."


Is the righteousness that God credits us when we have faith in Christ's atonement mean that our sins are forgiven and covered and will not be accounted for at the judgement?

Its as if you did not process what Ron explained to you what BELIEF in the Hebraic mind is ... you keep on equating it to mental assent ... or merely acknowledgment ... and as long as we don't agree on the biblical meaning of Belief ... then this discussion is moot Mizpeh.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Its as if you did not process what Ron explained to you what BELIEF in the Hebraic mind is ... you keep on equating it to mental assent ... or merely acknowledgment ... and as long as we don't agree on the biblical meaning of Belief ... then this discussion is moot Mizpeh.

That passage taken on its own asserts that forgiveness of sins happens when we believe. It is the blessedness of being accounted righteous. It is ammunition for your quiver not mine.

I thought my quoting Romans 4 about Abraham's faith or belief was affirming what Ron said since Abraham believed God's promise and He glorified Him trusting that He would keep his promise.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

That passage taken on its own asserts that forgiveness of sins happens when we believe. It is the blessedness of being accounted righteous. It is ammunition for your quiver not mine.

I agree ... Mizpeh ... but your initial question seemed to pose a different view ....

Does only believing the gospel save us or does believing the gospel and obeying the gospel save us?

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

I agree ... Mizpeh ... but your initial question seemed to pose a different view ....

That's because I do have a different view of salvation than you which I am not ready to let go of, but there are people here who are smarter than I am and who have more knowledge of the Bible than I do and I would like this discussion to be more than just about Acts 2:38.

You aren't doing a good job proving your case. (IMO) I want to give you more ammunition so you can bring out those who can prove how and when we are justified...made right with God and if this is the same as being forgiven or having our sins remitted.

There have been a couple of questions on this forum that were never answered adequately by "PAJCers" ie: Romans 10 Why doesn't this word of faith which we preach include Acts 2:38 instead of just belief and confession? or the question of Abraham being accounted righteous by faith before circumcision. I have some thoughts on these but I'm not sure, yet.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

That's because I do have a different view of salvation than you which I am not ready to let go of, but there are people here who are smarter than I am and who have more knowledge of the Bible than I do and I would like this discussion to be more than just about Acts 2:38.

You aren't doing a good job proving your case. (IMO) I want to give you more ammunition so you can bring out those who can prove how and when we are justified...made right with God and if this is the same as being forgiven or having our sins remitted.

There have been a couple of questions on this forum that were never answered adequately by "PAJCers" ie: Romans 10 Why doesn't this word of faith which we preach include Acts 2:38 instead of just belief and confession? or the question of Abraham being accounted righteous by faith before circumcision. I have some thoughts on these but I'm not sure, yet.

We have discussed the when and how of justification and remission at length ... in various threads ... especially here ...

Calling all PAJCers: When does Justification and Remission Happen?

Apostolics ... even PAJCers disagree on the when and how of justification and remission.

And yes there are gaping holes in the Water and Spirit doctrine when faced w/ a variety of scriptures ... they cannot explain away.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

We have discussed the when and how of justification and remission at length ... in various threads ... especially here ...

Calling all PAJCers: When does Justification and Remission Happen?

Apostolics ... even PAJCers disagree on the when and how of justification and remission.

And yes there are gaping holes in the Water and Spirit doctrine when faced w/ a variety of scriptures ... they cannot explain away.

Was the question of that thread ever answered adequately by either side?

I'll reread the thread.

[SDG]

[quote=mizpeh;91747]That's because I do have a different view of salvation than you which I am not ready to let go of, but there are people here who are smarter than I am and who have more knowledge of the Bible than I do and I would like this discussion to be more than just about Acts 2:38.
[quote]

Some of the 'learned' among us don't know anything else but the pledge of allegiance.

[mizpeh]

Dan,

Here is something to think about....when are we accounted righteous? at the moment of initial faith or after living a life of faith and being brought before the throne of Christ? (Remember Romans is written to saints not sinners.)

4:24 but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, NASB

5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, NASB

5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: KJV

5:19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. NASB