For those that left the UPC...

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by mfblume

No you cannot. That would violate the entire ethic of God, since people will not always have an apostle around, (though they still exist today).

How would that violate anything to do with God? It would only mean that if God wanted to give you the Holy Ghost he would send you an apostle.

EDIT: (This is no different than what you are saying: "If God wants to give you the Holy Ghost then he will see to it that you speak in tongues.")

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by jfrog

How would that violate anything to do with God? It would only mean that if God wanted to give you the Holy Ghost he would send you an apostle.

EDIT: (This is no different than what you are saying: "If God wants to give you the Holy Ghost then he will see to it that you speak in tongues.")

big difference. Having an apostle to get the Holy Ghost is not the same at all with tongues as initial evidence of the Holy Ghost. You're smarter than that, j. Come on. The answer is so obvious you only need think about it a second.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by mfblume

big difference. Having an apostle to get the Holy Ghost is not the same at all with tongues as initial evidence of the Holy Ghost. You're smarter than that, j. Come on. The answer is so obvious you only need think about it a second.

It's not the same? Why is it not the same? The way I see it is if God can make people speak in languages never learned just as part of receiving the Holy Ghost, then surely he can also get an apostle to be there when he wants to give the Holy Ghost to you. And if no apostles are left or will come then God can raise one up from stones. That shouldn't be any more difficult than getting you to speak in tongues... So what's the problem?

[mfblume]

If you cannot get it on your own, then leave it at that.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by mfblume

If you cannot get it on your own, then leave it at that.

No one in acts got it outside the presence of an Apostle. I'm just saying, if you can't do it the biblical way then why even worry about it?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by jfrog

No one in acts got it outside the presence of an Apostle. I'm just saying, if you can't do it the biblical way then why even worry about it?

I did. Acts 10.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I did. Acts 10.

There was an apostle present there.

[seekerman]

Yet another no tonguer example.

Act 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. And more of that laying on of hands in order than another person receive the Holy Ghost.

By the way, I'm still waiting on scripture where there's an example of folks 'getting' the Holy Ghost the apostolic pentecostal' way. In other words, going to an altar, seeking, begging, crying, with folks around them yelling and screaming....some doing that time and time again, night after night.

Book, chapter and verse please.

[mfblume]

Scholarly witness of Acts 8 and tongues:

GILL:

Act 8:18 And when Simon saw,.... Whence it appears, that the Holy Ghost, or his gifts, which were received by imposition of hands, were something visible and discernible; and so something external, and not internal; otherwise they would have been out of Simon's reach, and would not have fallen under his notice; but he saw,

that through laying on of the apostles' hands, the Holy Ghost was given: he saw, that upon this men began to prophesy, and to speak with divers tongues they had never learned, and to work miracles, cure men of their diseases, and the like: and when he observed this,


CLARKE:

Act 8:18
When Simon saw, etc. - By hearing these speak with different tongues and work miracles.


BARNES:

Act 8:18
Simon saw ... - That is, he witnessed the extraordinary effects, the power of speaking in a miraculous manner, etc. See the notes on Act_8:15.

Concerning receiving the Spirit: (3) it was something that was discernible by “external effects”; for Simon saw Act_8:18 that this was done by the laying on of hands.


ROBERTSON:

Act 8:18
When Simon saw (Idōn de ho Simōn). This participle (second aorist active of horaō) shows plainly that those who received the gift of the Holy Spirit spoke with tongues. Simon now saw power transferred to others. Hence he was determined to get this new power.

None of these guys were UPC. Hmmm....

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Scholarly witness of Acts 8 and tongues:

GILL:

Act 8:18 And when Simon saw,.... Whence it appears, that the Holy Ghost, or his gifts, which were received by imposition of hands, were something visible and discernible; and so something external, and not internal; otherwise they would have been out of Simon's reach, and would not have fallen under his notice; but he saw,

that through laying on of the apostles' hands, the Holy Ghost was given: he saw, that upon this men began to prophesy, and to speak with divers tongues they had never learned, and to work miracles, cure men of their diseases, and the like: and when he observed this,


CLARKE:

Act 8:18
When Simon saw, etc. - By hearing these speak with different tongues and work miracles.


BARNES:

Act 8:18
Simon saw ... - That is, he witnessed the extraordinary effects, the power of speaking in a miraculous manner, etc. See the notes on Act_8:15.

Concerning receiving the Spirit: (3) it was something that was discernible by “external effects”; for Simon saw Act_8:18 that this was done by the laying on of hands.


ROBERTSON:

Act 8:18
When Simon saw (Idōn de ho Simōn). This participle (second aorist active of horaō) shows plainly that those who received the gift of the Holy Spirit spoke with tongues. Simon now saw power transferred to others. Hence he was determined to get this new power.

None of these guys were UPC. Hmmm....

I agree that there was something significant that happened there. This does not change the fact that that something significant only happened after an apostle journeyed there.