For those that left the UPC...

mfblume · #1 05-29-2010, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfrog

How would that violate anything to do with God? It would only mean that if God wanted to give you the Holy Ghost he would send you an apostle.

EDIT: (This is no different than what you are saying: "If God wants to give you the Holy Ghost then he will see to it that you speak in tongues.")

big difference. Having an apostle to get the Holy Ghost is not the same at all with tongues as initial evidence of the Holy Ghost. You're smarter than that, j. Come on. The answer is so obvious you only need think about it a second.

jfrog · #2 05-29-2010, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

big difference. Having an apostle to get the Holy Ghost is not the same at all with tongues as initial evidence of the Holy Ghost. You're smarter than that, j. Come on. The answer is so obvious you only need think about it a second.

It's not the same? Why is it not the same? The way I see it is if God can make people speak in languages never learned just as part of receiving the Holy Ghost, then surely he can also get an apostle to be there when he wants to give the Holy Ghost to you. And if no apostles are left or will come then God can raise one up from stones. That shouldn't be any more difficult than getting you to speak in tongues... So what's the problem?

mfblume · #3 05-29-2010, 02:22 PM

If you cannot get it on your own, then leave it at that.

jfrog · #4 05-29-2010, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

If you cannot get it on your own, then leave it at that.

No one in acts got it outside the presence of an Apostle. I'm just saying, if you can't do it the biblical way then why even worry about it?

mfblume · #5 05-29-2010, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfrog

No one in acts got it outside the presence of an Apostle. I'm just saying, if you can't do it the biblical way then why even worry about it?

I did. Acts 10.

jfrog · #6 05-29-2010, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

I did. Acts 10.

There was an apostle present there.

seekerman · #7 05-29-2010, 02:32 PM

Yet another no tonguer example.

Act 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. And more of that laying on of hands in order than another person receive the Holy Ghost.

By the way, I'm still waiting on scripture where there's an example of folks 'getting' the Holy Ghost the apostolic pentecostal' way. In other words, going to an altar, seeking, begging, crying, with folks around them yelling and screaming....some doing that time and time again, night after night.

Book, chapter and verse please.

jfrog · #8 05-29-2010, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seekerman

Yet another no tonguer example.

Act 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

By the way, I'm still waiting on scripture where there's an example of folks 'getting' the Holy Ghost the 'apostolic pentecostal' way. In other words, going to an altar, seeking, begging, crying, with folks around them yelling and screaming....some doing that time and time again, night after night.

Book, chapter and verse please.

There is one here who says that she got the Holy Ghost without ever asking for it! I am amazed by that.

noeticknight · #9 05-29-2010, 02:46 PM

Interesting turn of topic. Reminds of my thread on the "Initial Evidence" doctrine--serious questions, no real answers. And while I appreciate mfblume's opinion (along with others), I will say that jfrog and seekerman are asking the logical questions that tend to shake this teaching apart. Of course, this is just my opinion.

Since this seems to be a recurring topic, and more importantly, since it is always tied to salvation in a rudimentary and formulaic fashion, I would like to see this doctrine put on the table as an official AFF debate. Does anybody want to make that happen?

Sam · #10 05-29-2010, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seekerman

...
By the way, I'm still waiting on scripture where there's an example of folks 'getting' the Holy Ghost the apostolic pentecostal' way. In other words, going to an altar, seeking, begging, crying, with folks around them yelling and screaming....some doing that time and time again, night after night.

Book, chapter and verse please.

You won't find that (the sweating, pleading, man-handling, hollering, spitting, chin grabbing, pummeling "Pentecostal hazing ceremony") in the Scriptures. That's our man-made method.

In Acts chapter 2 the Holy Spirit filled about one fourth of the early church as they were sitting.
There's no record of whether or not the other three fourths (I'm speaking of the over 500 who were witnesses of Jesus' resurrection) ever did or did not get baptized in the Spirit.

In Acts chapter 8 the Holy Ghost baptism was given in Samaria by the laying on of hands.

In Acts chapter 8 the Holy Spirit fell upon the eunuch as he was in the water according to some manuscripts and readings.

In Acts chapter 9 it seems that the Holy Spirit baptism was ministered to Saul by an almost unknown disciple named Ananias by the laying on of hands.

In Acts chapter 10 the Holy Spirit fell upon people as they were listening to the Word being preached.

In Acts chapter 19 the Holy Spirit was ministered to a group of about dozen when the Apostle Paul laid his hands upon them.

So, in my opinion, there is a post-salvation experience in the Holy Spirit called by various terms such as
a baptism in the Spirit,
a filling with the Spirit,
the Spirit coming upon,
receiving the Spirit,
the Spirit falling upon,
being clothed or endued with power
mentioned several times in the Book of Acts. This experience seems to come or happen a couple different ways but laying on of hands (not always by an apostle) seems to be more common (three out of the above 6). There are also places in the book of Acts where conversions are recorded but there is no word of a subsequent (HGB) Holy Ghost Baptism.

In my opinion, we need to be careful here not to get too dogmatic or to develop a doctrine that we use to designate heaven or hell as a destination.

In my opinion, there are folks that get saved and don't go on to another experience that we call the HGB (Holy Ghost Baptism). Your opinion may be different than mine.