Ya know...that little "FISH" sign on the back of your car

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Carpenter

No, I am beginning to think YOU are the one with the comprehension problem. For the tenth time, the story had little or nothing to do with the way they treated me. This story has to do with the acknowledgement of fellow Apostolic people or not despite a very cordial and holy ghost attitude.

They did not warm until they saw the apostolic FISH SIGN!

And for the 10th time BARB said your story shows THEY were unkind and for the 10th time I was telling BARB that SHE, not you but SHE assumed the worst, but now I am do wonder about your motives also considering your subsequent replies

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Barb

LOL!! Telling of what, Prax?! Carp said they were looking at him weird...sounds unkind to me...and I didn't assume, I read...JMHO...

Bump for Carp

BTW the early church used that fish sign to identify themselves to each other.

I wonder, just how often would a total stranger walk up to you and assume you were a brother or sister? You said you said "Praise the Lord" to a baptist, but did you already know he was a baptist? Was there a reason in his mind for a total stranger to just say "Praise the Lord"? To some people that might catch them off guard for a moment wondering why a total stranger knows them or knows they are Christians. And in fact I have seen it many times. I have see other Apostolics and walked up to them to talk and at first they looked "weird" too until I explained that I could tell THEY were Apostolics. That does not mean or imply anything other than what is in the mind of the one that wants to draw an accusation.

[Carpenter]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Bump for Carp

BTW the early church used that fish sign to identify themselves to each other.

I wonder, just how often would a total stranger walk up to you and assume you were a brother or sister? You said you said "Praise the Lord" to a baptist, but did you already know he was a baptist? Was there a reason in his mind for a total stranger to just say "Praise the Lord"? To some people that might catch them off guard for a moment wondering why a total stranger knows them or knows they are Christians. And in fact I have seen it many times. I have see other Apostolics and walked up to them to talk and at first they looked "weird" too until I explained that I could tell THEY were Apostolics. That does not mean or imply anything other than what is in the mind of the one that wants to draw an accusation.

Well then, I guess it just shows to go ya that folks aren't as separated as they thought the were?

[Carpenter]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

See this is exactly the nasty attitude I was referring to before. Maybe you should be looking in the mirror Coop...er...Carp. I bet if you were honest and objective you'd admit that you could walk up to a baptist and say "Hello there brother may I get the door for you" and they would look at you quizzically at first. And I bet, if you were an honest objective person, you'd do the same to an Apostolic and they would say "Thank you, are you a Christian too?"

It depends on the persons involved, the situations and their current mind set, not religion.

You are proving my point the more you open your mouth, or type with your fingers as it were. Though you became upset that you thought I was talking about you when I was replying to Barb, your subsequent answers only betray your underlying prejudice. That probably was your point all along considering the attitude you have displayed since then.

Pal, I only get upset when people compare me to Cooper.

Typical, you resort to insults when your point is lost in truth and logic.

People are people and some are more paranoid and see the debbil behind every rock and tree than others.

So be it.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Originally Posted by Carpenter

your point is lost in truth and logic.

This almost evolved into a nice thread too.

Carp, maybe sometime I will venture through your way on purpose to simply shake your hand.

[Carpenter]

Originally Posted by BoredOutOfMyMind

This almost evolved into a nice thread too.

Carp, maybe sometime I will venture through your way on purpose to simply shake your hand.

Brother that would be fantastic...

[CC1]

Originally Posted by NobodyImportant

Yes, I do. It relates to Dagon as well as other fish gods in various mythologies.
Also, have you ever seen the trinity symbol commonly found on the spines of various theological books? Take one part of that and you have the fish.
That symbol was adopted by early religious groups as representing their belief, but its roots are pagan.
NI

NI,

I trust you don't use a calendar or acknowledge the days of the week since they most certainly have pagan origins.

If you refuse to associate or use anything that at some point in time as been used by pagans you are just conceding those things to them. Why not just claim them for Lord?

Do you have specific, verified documentation that the fish symbol is evil? You yourself conceded that for hundreds, possibly over a thousand years, it has been a symbol meaning Christian. Does the fact that at some points pagans may have used a similar symbol for something negate all of that history?

You are truly swallowing a gnat.

[CC1]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I know people that left the org or our local church or standards etc etc and they never got mistreated by me. Once again the sweeping generalization spirit is alive and well

Praxes,

It is easy for you to say it is a sweeping generalization. I can assure you that it is in fact something that happens a lot. Over and over again.

It is endemic in old time Pentecost. People are immeresed in legalism and misapplication of scriptures and it becomes the barometer by which they judge all others. That is only nautral within that kind of culture and belief system.

I learned this the hard way. Way back in the beginning of 1983 when I moved my young family to Austin Texas to attend Kenneth Phillips church I was shocked at the response we got.

I quickly discovered that many folks I thought were friends were merely acquaitances because once we lost the common bond of being UPC they treated us like pariah.

My wifes home church that had always been so welcoming, having her sing and me testify every time we visited suddenly ignored our presence when we visited. People all around us would be acknowledged and recognized but not us. After service of course the pastor was his usual friendly self. (footnote - after being at KP's for about seven years my wifes pastor finally decided we were not "coming home" to the UPC and actually started recognizing us again when we visited.

What I am describing is something that is hard to see when you are immeresed in the culture but once you are out of it and ostracized you start seeing things objectively and in a whole new light.

I have heard the process of dealing with all of this as deprogramming and I agree. I found myself for years instinctively judging peopole I met by how they looked. Did the guy have hair over his ears? Oh, then he must be backslid or not in church! This was long after intellectually and spiritually I came to an understanding that the UPC dress code was not biblical.

It can be denied all day and night long but if you don't think psychological conditioning is a huge part of old time Pentecost you are deluded.

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by CC1

NI,

I trust you don't use a calendar or acknowledge the days of the week since they most certainly have pagan origins.

If you refuse to associate or use anything that at some point in time as been used by pagans you are just conceding those things to them. Why not just claim them for Lord?

Do you have specific, verified documentation that the fish symbol is evil? You yourself conceded that for hundreds, possibly over a thousand years, it has been a symbol meaning Christian. Does the fact that at some points pagans may have used a similar symbol for something negate all of that history?

You are truly swallowing a gnat.

In the Bible the "High places" started as Holy worship places then became perverted. Did that mean the that those places were still Holy? Cause remember the song Going up to the High places going tear the devils kingdom down.....we are take back what he stole from us. etc

What you are saying CC1 is totally right on here. A few things pointing to the negative does that negate the goodness of it? NO. A few years ago Pastor Gurley from Tx preached at the National Youth Congress a message "Remember the Fish." It was a great message. He talk all about this. He said that it really comes down to Him. It is all about Him. Remember the fish!

[Carpenter]

Originally Posted by CC1

Praxes,

It is easy for you to say it is a sweeping generalization. I can assure you that it is in fact something that happens a lot. Over and over again.

It is endemic in old time Pentecost. People are immeresed in legalism and misapplication of scriptures and it becomes the barometer by which they judge all others. That is only nautral within that kind of culture and belief system.

I learned this the hard way. Way back in the beginning of 1983 when I moved my young family to Austin Texas to attend Kenneth Phillips church I was shocked at the response we got.

I quickly discovered that many folks I thought were friends were merely acquaitances because once we lost the common bond of being UPC they treated us like pariah.

My wifes home church that had always been so welcoming, having her sing and me testify every time we visited suddenly ignored our presence when we visited. People all around us would be acknowledged and recognized but not us. After service of course the pastor was his usual friendly self. (footnote - after being at KP's for about seven years my wifes pastor finally decided we were not "coming home" to the UPC and actually started recognizing us again when we visited.

What I am describing is something that is hard to see when you are immeresed in the culture but once you are out of it and ostracized you start seeing things objectively and in a whole new light.

I have heard the process of dealing with all of this as deprogramming and I agree. I found myself for years instinctively judging peopole I met by how they looked. Did the guy have hair over his ears? Oh, then he must be backslid or not in church! This was long after intellectually and spiritually I came to an understanding that the UPC dress code was not biblical.

It can be denied all day and night long but if you don't think psychological conditioning is a huge part of old time Pentecost you are deluded.

Tell you what CC, this is an awesome post. You articulate this better and more clearly than I ever could. People just think my threads are goofy at best.