Worship Casualties: Who speaks for the injured?

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by Esther

Temperance doesn't translate to self-control, IMO. I would say it would be more acturate to say balance.

Of course it does. Not only does the Greek word translated "Temperance" but also the English word "Temperance." It directly means that.

This isn't a way of striking out....so I say this respectfully, but you say, "IMO". We keep talking here about personal opinions, but personal opinions are worthless without scriptural authority.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by notofworks

......and yes of course, we have the obligatory verse about David dancing with all his might until he was naked and his wife was embarrassed.

First, there are a lot of things that were done in the culture of Old Testament Judaism that are no longer practiced in the New...unless you have a laver of water and a Holy of Holies at your church.

Second...this was a traditional cultural dance that was choreographed and practiced. It was NOT frantic, out-of-control, "shouting." Not even close.

Third...He shed his kingly robe. That's what his wife was embarrassed about. David had shed his cloak of authority.

And Fourth...there's nothing in the story that indicates that what David did was a good thing.

I have danced in the Spirit on one occasion. I can honestly say it was one of the most spiritual experiences I have had.

At first it was like I was so caught up in worshipping God, that it was like an out of body experience. (It wasn't and I'm not claiming that-just that is the best description I can give) while at the same time being completely in control of myself, and not running into others or injuring myself. I remember seeing the pews and the people around me. Shortly thereafter I can't remember anything, almost like being blacked out in the physical, yet I was dancing around the church and speaking in tongues. I don't remember seeing anything, but didn't run into anything or anyone, which would have been easy to do because the church was small, not really a good running and dancing church, not alot of open or free space.

When I came to, I was at the front of the church near the alter still speking in tonuges, while singing (I don't know how) only to realize the song had ended and the piano player and song leader had both left the stage to worship God.

It was amazing, I 100% completely believe it was of God. I had control of my body and Spirit, didn't hurt anyone, and didn't do anything except for dance and worship. No rolling on the ground, vomiting, pooping, barking, etc.

I believe that I'm a pretty level headed Christian, and don't mince words about what I feel are the abuses of unbibilical emothionalism prevelant in pentecostal churches.

I guess all I'm saying is that just because there is alot of fake, phony, carnal junk going on (possibly the majority of it), doesn't mean that there isn't a real experience with God.

There isn't Bible for alot of things pentecostals call worship, but there is for singing, dancing, leaping, shouting, and clapping.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by pelathais

"Temperance" in Galatians 5:23, does translate into "self control."

G1466
ἐγκράτεια
egkrateia
eng-krat'-i-ah
From G1468; self control (especially continence): - temperance.

The root word means literally "to be strong in something," or to have the "mastery" over something. In this context, the "thing" that one is to have "mastery" over is "Self."

This is from the Bible Knowledge Commentary on Galatians 5:23:

"Self-control (enkrateia; this noun is used in the NT only here and in Acts 24:25; 2 Peter 1:6) denotes self-mastery and no doubt primarily relates to curbing the fleshly impulses just described. Such a quality is impossible to attain apart from the power of God’s Spirit (cf. Galatians 5:16); As a final summary statement Paul affirmed that there are no prohibitions (lit., there is not a law) against such virtues. In a litotes (understatement) he asserted that obviously no one would make laws against people who practice such things."

How all of this "translates" into the mystical and ecstatic experiences that have characterized much of the religious experience for humans is a point of further debate; but the meaning here is "self control."

Thanks Pel. You said it much better than I......as usual.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

I have danced in the Spirit on one occasion. I can honestly say it was one of the most spiritual experiences I have had.

At first it was like I was so caught up in worshipping God, that it was like an out of body experience. (It wasn't and I'm not claiming that-just that is the best description I can give) while at the same time being completely in control of myself, and not running into others or injuring myself. I remember seeing the pews and the people around me. Shortly thereafter I can't remember anything, almost like being blacked out in the physical, yet I was dancing around the church and speaking in tongues. I don't remember seeing anything, but didn't run into anything or anyone, which would have been easy to do because the church was small, not really a good running and dancing church, not alot of open or free space.

When I came to, I was at the front of the church near the alter still speking in tonuges, while singing (I don't know how) only to realize the song had ended and the piano player and song leader had both left the stage to worship God.

It was amazing, I 100% completely believe it was of God. I had control of my body and Spirit, didn't hurt anyone, and didn't do anything except for dance and worship. No rolling on the ground, vomiting, pooping, barking, etc.

I believe that I'm a pretty level headed Christian, and don't mince words about what I feel are the abuses of unbibilical emothionalism prevelant in pentecostal churches.

I guess all I'm saying is that just because there is alot of fake, phony, carnal junk going on (possibly the majority of it), doesn't mean that there isn't a real experience with God.

There isn't Bible for alot of things pentecostals call worship, but there is for singing, dancing, leaping, shouting, and clapping.

Currently, I also "Lead worship" at our church, although that's not really what I do. I would say it's more of the "Lead Singer" in the band that plays music in our church gatherings. So....I would say I do some form of "Dancing" every single week. Now....it may more resemble Steven Tyler or Mick Jagger than it would pentecostal "shouting" but Jason, there is such passion in it!! I understand what you're saying, but in the forum that I'm talking about, it is an energy from God that is incredible. It's liberating, it's under control, it's "worshipful", it's in the flow with the things that are happening, and NOTHING about it looks "weird". I can guarantee you this.....NEVER...EVER....would anyone ever walk into our service and say, "They're insane" or "he's insane". And thereby, we are in complete adherence to the NT guidelines found in I Corinthians 14.

[notofworks]

One more thing for the wife of David being barren after she ripped him for dancing....

That doesn't, at all, endorse what he did. David, when he was younger, cut the robe of King Saul when Saul was asleep, to let him know he was there...and he got in trouble for it. He got in trouble, not because God endorsed Saul's activities...his activities were horrible...but because God protects the position of the leader.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Currently, I also "Lead worship" at our church, although that's not really what I do. I would say it's more of the "Lead Singer" in the band that plays music in our church gatherings. So....I would say I do some form of "Dancing" every single week. Now....it may more resemble Steven Tyler or Mick Jagger than it would pentecostal "shouting" but Jason, there is such passion in it!! I understand what you're saying, but in the forum that I'm talking about, it is an energy from God that is incredible. It's liberating, it's under control, it's "worshipful", it's in the flow with the things that are happening, and NOTHING about it looks "weird". I can guarantee you this.....NEVER...EVER....would anyone ever walk into our service and say, "They're insane" or "he's insane". And thereby, we are in complete adherence to the NT guidelines found in I Corinthians 14.

I understand what your saying. Most would condemn my style of woship as being bapticostal. I've been in services where the preacher screamed if you didn't run there was something wrong with you, and I refused to run. I had people push me on the head, but like you, i'm not falling unless God causes me to.

At roughly 3 services a week for ten years that is over 1500 church services I attended, and I related an experience I had only once. I 100% completely agree with you that God moves on people without shockamoo. The most worshipful place for me is sometimes when I'm alone driving in my car, just praising God. (In English)

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

I understand what your saying. Most would condemn my style of woship as being bapticostal. I've been in services where the preacher screamed if you didn't run there was something wrong with you, and I refused to run. I had people push me on the head, but like you, i'm not falling unless God causes me to.

At roughly 3 services a week for ten years that is over 1500 church services I attended, and I related an experience I had only once. I 100% completely agree with you that God moves on people without shockamoo. The most worshipful place for me is sometimes when I'm alone driving in my car, just praising God. (In English)

I have wept many times as I drove. I'm glad you said that.

And I'll tell you something else....I was at The Crystal Cathedral once and I'll tell you.....WOW!!!! What power!! I was shaken to my shoes.

I'll tell you something else by PM.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Bolded: Really??? I would think exactly the opposite. Are you saying that because some HAS pooped uncontrollably under the power of the Holy Ghost, that it would lend them credibility into the discussion? If someone NOT experiencing something takes away their "street cred", then it would seem that someone that HAS experienced something makes them credible.

But again, the scriptural principles are the ONLY thing that matters here. Personal stories are just that...stories. Stories are a dime a dozen and we could gather some stuff that would make you immediately say, "No way", and we already have, at least, a couple of those things...pooping, barking like a dog, and laughing like a hyena. Do you think that your lack of experience in those areas takes away your ability to comment about their validity? I'm sure you would say, "No."

This post is about to cause me "Holy Laughter"

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

This post is about to cause me "Holy Laughter"

holy laughter like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SgByE0pX1M

[Fiyahstarter]

God's control trumps self-control, I would say.

Of course there is always phony and self-exaltation. That does not negate the genuine.

NOW...you say YOUR worship is powerful and genuine but imply others' are fake and unbiblical. You amuse me.