Is There A Difference?

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I believe and teach that Paul's words in Ephesians that speak of the spirit of wisdom and revelation is not speaking about the Holy Ghost, but rather our human spirits rendered sensitive so we can discern truths.

I see no difference in the sealing of the Holy Ghost and the baptism for power, personally. It's all one and the same experience, and speaking in tongues indicates when that experience began.

Eph Chapter 1 is about the "spirit of wisdom"

14who is(AI) the guarantee[d] of our(AJ) inheritance until(AK) we acquire(AL) possession of it,[e](AM) to the praise of his glory.

And PO before we lazily go into the whole "Paul was talking to saints-only" merrygoround, did you only hear the Gospel when you were an unbeliever. Did you not year-after-year discover more fully what it is you have received? Who you were? This whole argument about it not being to unbelievers (duh) is obtuse and largely ignoring the concept that Paul omits any exhaustive handling with theology. Not the Paul we know.

Something as central as the Holy Spirit isn't going to be missed by a "you should know everything when you believe" syndrome. Nice try.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

That would be the most reasonable explanation as the Book of Ephesians opens with the words, "...to the saints which are at Ephesus...". He is addressing the church, which was already spirit filled.

Clearly, the writer in Ephesians wants us to draw closer to God. We know that it is possible to become more sensitive and knowledgeable in the Spirit when we do so. I believe that is why it can be written in 1 Corinthians 12:11 "But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will." and why I Cor 14:1 encourages us to "desire" spiritual gifts."

All of these things are conditional toward our desire to pursue and draw closer to God.


I have never seen the scripture support any view other than the Holy Ghost providing both sealing, power and the evidence - the selfsame Spirit.

Well, that's because you believe Spirit Baptism (with tongues) is limited to one experience, multi-functional. Others believe in a multi-experiential spirit that is multi-functional. In other words, what the Spirit does in Acts, is not what the Spirit does in John 3 or what the Spirit will do at the Resurrection of the dead. Same Spirit, different function for the believer.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Well, that's because you believe Spirit Baptism (with tongues) is limited to one experience, multi-functional. Others believe in a multi-experiential spirit that is multi-functional. In other words, what the Spirit does in Acts, is not what the Spirit does in John 3 or what the Spirit will do at the Resurrection of the dead. Same Spirit, different function for the believer.

I do!!! I feel like Peter or sumthin'!!!

Don't have time for further response right now, but thanks for addressing the post. I'll try to remember to reply later, Jeffrey.

Oh, I just realized all I need to say is "I don't agree with what you are saying."

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Well, that means like 80% or so of population is saved then.

Where do you get your math? Are you saying 80% of the globe profess faith in Jesus? Of those who do, all legitamately have faith in Him?

Not that it's a bad thing if true... right Should be a beautiful thing. But just to cater to you "we must be 1% of the population to qualify for the 'narrow ways'" mentality, I would even argue your shooting-from-the-hips statistic.

[easter]

Receiving the Holy Spirit is a promise that is for all who have salvation in Christ.

Ephesians 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8 that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9 And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.
11 In him we were also chosen,[e] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.

FAITH
Hebrews 11: 1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

When one repents of sin and accepts Jesus as Lord and Savior this person steps out in FAITH knowing that if the tongues don't appear at the moment they receive salvation through Christ, FAITH in Christ and his promise and his work on the cross is what it's really all about.Through Christ and Christ alone is where we find our forgiveness of sin and our salvation.
Now the Holy Spirit is to guide us into all truth and He only speaks of things about Jesus and not about himself

John 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

John 14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

So for the one's who have received salvation through Christ and do not speak in an unknown tongue have stepped out into FAITH knowing that speaking in an unknown tongue is not what guarantees our salvation.The Holy Spirit is only sent to the ones who have salvation through Christ.
Jesus is the only sign that a believer needs to receive salvation.It's through the blood of the Lamb that saves a person and this alone is what FAITH is about! FAITH in Christ is what gets a person saved not tongues.

However I would love to have the gift of tongues but I don't but I have FAITH that I have salvation because of Jesus.I wonder how many poor souls have begged for the Holy Spirit because they didn't speak in an unknown tongue when they were saved?What did Jesus say about this?

Matthew 14:31 Immediately Jesus stretched out His hand and took hold of him, and said to him, "You of little faith, why did you doubt?"

Matthew 17:20 And He said to them, "Because of the littleness of your faith; for truly I say to you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.

So I will put my FAITH in Christ,secure in my salvation through him alone and if the Holy Spirit gives me the gift of tongues (YEA
Maybe another gift,such as discernment,maybe knowledge in the word?

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I believe and teach that Paul's words in Ephesians that speak of the spirit of wisdom and revelation is not speaking about the Holy Ghost, but rather our human spirits rendered sensitive so we can discern truths.

I see no difference in the sealing of the Holy Ghost and the baptism for power, personally. It's all one and the same experience, and speaking in tongues indicates when that experience began.

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Eph Chapter 1 is about the "spirit of wisdom"

14who is(AI) the guarantee[d] of our(AJ) inheritance until(AK) we acquire(AL) possession of it,[e](AM) to the praise of his glory.

And PO before we lazily go into the whole "Paul was talking to saints-only" merrygoround, did you only hear the Gospel when you were an unbeliever. Did you not year-after-year discover more fully what it is you have received? Who you were? This whole argument about it not being to unbelievers (duh) is obtuse and largely ignoring the concept that Paul omits any exhaustive handling with theology. Not the Paul we know.

Something as central as the Holy Spirit isn't going to be missed by a "you should know everything when you believe" syndrome. Nice try.

I'm going to let MB address you here since you are referencing his post.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Eph Chapter 1 is about the "spirit of wisdom"

14who is(AI) the guarantee[d] of our(AJ) inheritance until(AK) we acquire(AL) possession of it,[e](AM) to the praise of his glory.

And PO before we lazily go into the whole "Paul was talking to saints-only" merrygoround, did you only hear the Gospel when you were an unbeliever. Did you not year-after-year discover more fully what it is you have received? Who you were? This whole argument about it not being to unbelievers (duh) is obtuse and largely ignoring the concept that Paul omits any exhaustive handling with theology. Not the Paul we know.

Something as central as the Holy Spirit isn't going to be missed by a "you should know everything when you believe" syndrome. Nice try.

I am not sure why you are addressing P.O. here, but unless I am missing something, I never said anything about knowing everything as soon as we believe.

We all know saints sometimes were taken over salvation experience in order to inform them of the potential they have been given in God's Spirit already received, such as this instance. It has nothing to do with knowing everything we should know when we first believe. That is as far from my concept as can be. In fact, my whole emphasis in ministry has been spiritual maturity, and how so many neglect it and remain infantile.

Eph 1 speaks of the earnest of our inheritance showing we do indeed have so much more to experience later, and not all at initial salvation.

We are to grow in understanding by the Spirit of God working in our human spirits to grant us eyes of understanding and revelation. We have human spirits, too. We discern and understand with our human spirits, for the carnal and natural mind cannot relate to the things of God at all. A spiritual mind (soul) is simply a mind that can cooperate with the Spirit of God within one's own spirit, and "translate" what God id relating in our human spirits.

Where on earth did you get the impression I was proposing we should know everything when we believe from the quote you made from me? What am I missing here?