UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!

[RandyWayne]

Originally Posted by drummerboy_dave

Frog, there is a short answer and a longer answer here. The short answer to: "has God ever given anyone the authority to reject those whom he is willing to accept?", based on my view of Romans 14, is no.

Regarding a pastor making a statement like: "they may can get to heaven by doing that, but they won't in my church", I think the instances of that type of statement are probably rare and you're posing of the question is probably more for dramatic effect than substance; albeit it is still a valid question. As someone stated in this thread way earlier, If and when a pastor makes such a stand, it is up to the membership of that church to decide whether they are going to stand with him or not.

I seem to remember Epley making such statements..... And if he did, I am sure there are many many others.

[drummerboy_dave]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

I seem to remember Epley making such statements..... And if he did, I am sure there are many many others.

dramatic effect! dramatic effect! do you not yet realize how people just love to say things that will stir up trouble?

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by DAII

The following is from a Pentecostal Herald article authored by Mark Fogarty.

...
Three Levels of Christian Character by Mark Fogarty.
Published in October 2004 issue of The Pentecostal Herald.

There are three levels to Christian character. This character is developed and matured by the level of holiness to which we have adhered.

First, there is Biblical holiness. This cannot be argued, disputed, compromised, or taken away. No individual is exempt from following Biblical holiness; it is the entrance level of walking with God. This level is forever settled, as stated in Psalm 119:89. Liberty should be granted to any minister at any time to preach Biblical holiness. In our efforts to be considerate of other ministries and churches, we often eleminate one of the identifying factors of the Apostolic church - that we are a holiness people. Never should we place restraints on the pulpit when it comes to preaching the Word of God. The preaching of the Word breeds holiness into people.

Second, holiness involves local church government. This refers to local church standards. No one can set these standards except the pastor. The responsibility lies with the pastor to preach, teach, and enforce the standards that he feels necessary for the church that he pastors. Ezekiel referred to the pastor as a "watchman" (Ezekiel 3:17). The Scripture plainly states that the pastor has the responsibility to set the standard (Ezekiel 44:23). Pastors violate and profane the law of God when they make no difference between the clean and the unclean (Ezekiel 22:26).

The responsibility and the burden of preaching, teaching, and enforcing holiness lies only with the pastor. No visiting minister, evangelist, or neighboring pastor can set a standard of conduct for a church that he does not pastor. Anyone who endeavors to do this is in violation of God's command. This level of holiness and character does and should control who is in the leadership of a church. If someone does not desire to climb to this level of holiness and character, he should not be used in a local assembly. To involve someone who does not adhere to what the pastor teaches causes confusion, and God is not the author of confusion. ...

The confusion in this article is something else all of its own. With respect to the writer, he does hold a position of responsibility and is probably tasked with expounding "the party line." I cannot judge just how much he really buys into this rhetoric and how much is simply him "doing his job." For this reason I'm willing to offer the benefit of the doubt on several contradictory points.

The writer's leap in logic in identifying God's call to the prophet Ezekiel in the Babylonian captivity with the modern day UPC "pastor's" role is a bumpy ride indeed, however. The writer to makes the assertion that:

"... The Scripture plainly states that the pastor has the responsibility to set the standard."

And all of this is based upon his faulty hermeneutic? Certainly, a modern day pastor can fulfill the role - in TYPE - of an OT prophet. And, the NT pastors are responsible for watch out for the spiritual welfare of the NT believer.

However, just how does the typical UPC pastor's role fit into this? The typical UPC pastor rules over a local congregation as though it were his own inheritance and not the Lord's. Nowhere in the NT can we find a single man given the unlimited and unrestrained power that this writer appears to be advocating and that the UPC culture promotes. It seems to me that the writer should have referenced Jeremiah 22:22, here instead. (See also Jeremiah 2:8, Jeremiah 5:30-31 and Ezekiel 34:2-10).

I don't know how he managed to read past Ezekiel 34, without comment.

AND... when the "pastor" is clearly in violation of the PLAIN teaching of the New Testament concerning Christian liberty and Christian responsibility - one simply cannot compare him to anything Biblical at all - OT or NT! (See Acts 15:28-29; Matthew 23:4; Revelation 2:24).

On a more positive note, the writer does appear to be speaking out against the trend where one guy's "revelation" of some new standard is forced upon the rest of the fellowship, whether they like it or not. Those "good pastors" among us might see this as an encouraging sign.

Sadly, the lament of most people in the UPC experience has been: Jeremiah 10:21, and this article, on the whole, would appear to seek only to maintain that sad and spiritually painful status quo.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by missourimary

Here are some of my questions about the article:

Where are these three levels of holiness talked about in the Bible? Is this holiness or holier-than-thou-ness?

Holiness is bred into us by preaching? Not by the work of God in our lives, not by study and prayer and setting aside time with God who is Holy? I guess I've missed the passage about holiness being bred into us in my studies as well. It sounds well thought out, but I find no scriptural foundation.

God's word clearly states the difference between the holy and the profane. The passages cited don't give priests the right or responsibility to enforce more than God has taught, but rather to teach the people the word of God. And this was the responsibility of OT priests, not NT pastors.

From the article:

Really? What if the pastor is wrong with the Master?


Wow, I didn't think anyone not submissive to the word of God was a Christian. God is not limited by location. We are called to work for Him, not the local church. Jer 31:33 isn't about outward rules and standards at all. Not that those are all necessarily bad, but this verse is about inward holiness, not outward.

I agree with the above....

concerning the bolded statement. I didn't know that outward rules are seperate from the principle. You have principle rule. Love God and Love they neighbor. Then you have application of principle rule which is a rule. any standards must come from the structure of the divine law/order. If there is no direct application it cannot be said to be heaven or hell. This involves inward and outward. All things are a response from the inward. speech, walk, activities etc.... The inward governs the outward as you know.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by drummerboy_dave

Frog, there is a short answer and a longer answer here. The short answer to: "has God ever given anyone the authority to reject those whom he is willing to accept?", based on my view of Romans 14, is no.

Regarding a pastor making a statement like: "they may can get to heaven by doing that, but they won't in my church", I think the instances of that type of statement are probably rare and you're posing of the question is probably more for dramatic effect than substance; albeit it is still a valid question. As someone stated in this thread way earlier, If and when a pastor makes such a stand, it is up to the membership of that church to decide whether they are going to stand with him or not.

The only alternative I can think of that those pastors and christians could believe is that if someone doesn't do things exactly the way their church does that person will not make it to heaven regardless of the pastor they have. Are you saying that is actually what they believe??? Because if that is true then things are far worse than I thought!

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

I seem to remember Epley making such statements..... And if he did, I am sure there are many many others.

Yes, it was Epley. And between his quote and the article saying that anyone who doesn't follow the pastors rules can't be right with God, it becomes apparent that many in the UPC believe that people can make it to heaven in some churches and not in others simply because they may keep one of those pastors convictions and not the others.

Originally Posted by drummerboy_dave

dramatic effect! dramatic effect! do you not yet realize how people just love to say things that will stir up trouble?

It was more than dramatic effect. Epley and the article DA posted both affirm that this is not an uncommon belief.

[Charnock]

I want it known that my posts on this thread were never meant to excuse any harm to this young lady. However, it's always the same old characters tearing down every minister who does something stupid. It's as if you believe it's your calling or something.

I guess it's easy to criticize as you set on the bench, doing absolutely nothing for the Lord but maligning others. Hows about finding your own avenue of ministry (aside from AFF)? Maybe then you'll have a bit more compassion toward others.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Charnock

I want it known that my posts on this thread were never meant to excuse any harm to this young lady. However, it's always the same old characters tearing down every minister who does something stupid. It's as if you believe it's your calling or something.

I guess it's easy to criticize as you set on the bench, doing absolutely nothing for the Lord but maligning others. Hows about finding your own avenue of ministry (aside from AFF)? Maybe then you'll have a bit more compassion toward others.

To whom are you referring?

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Charnock

I want it known that my posts on this thread were never meant to excuse any harm to this young lady. However, it's always the same old characters tearing down every minister who does something stupid. It's as if you believe it's your calling or something.

I guess it's easy to criticize as you set on the bench, doing absolutely nothing for the Lord but maligning others. Hows about finding your own avenue of ministry (aside from AFF)? Maybe then you'll have a bit more compassion toward others.

How has anyone here lacked compassion toward that pastor? Compassion has nothing to do with not speaking up when someone commits a wrong. Compassion is not about sweeping incidents under the rug so no one finds out. Compassion is not about being all hush-hush.

Compassion is about not rejoicing in iniquity. I don't know of anyone here that does that; everyone here I know wishes that such things would not happen. Such things do happen though and they will continue to happen because we are all human, and those people who do wrong will continue to be forgiven just as quickly as they show a repentant heart and sometimes even before!

Make no mistake, we do have compassion, but we also will not and should not allow wrongs to simply be swept under the rug and falsely call that compassion.

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by Charnock

I want it known that my posts on this thread were never meant to excuse any harm to this young lady. However, it's always the same old characters tearing down every minister who does something stupid. It's as if you believe it's your calling or something.

I guess it's easy to criticize as you set on the bench, doing absolutely nothing for the Lord but maligning others. Hows about finding your own avenue of ministry (aside from AFF)? Maybe then you'll have a bit more compassion toward others.

Totally understand your sentiments.

I think what makes this especially inexcusable though is the opportunities (two) given to amend the "stupid" remark.

Sure there are opportunist who love to take a swipe when any scandal surfaces...

Nevertheless, the district boards and pastors reading this should learn to retract and rectify the "stupidity" before it becomes a legal issue to be paraded amongst the entire world.