For those that left the UPC...

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Sam

Since 1992 I have just gone to a trinity church (one from 1992 to 2006 and another from 2006 till the present). I feel much better about the people I associate with and much better about myself after getting out of the UPC. By now many of the folks in those various UPC splits and factions have either forgotten me or have accepted me or have just written me off as reprobate.

Its sad that you could not find any solice so you went to a trinity church. How much does it bother you regarding their baptismal formula or belief on the Godhead. Are they " I will see three in heaven" type trinitarians or are they "its all one" type trinity

[Sam]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

Its sad that you could not find any solice so you went to a trinity church. How much does it bother you regarding their baptismal formula or belief on the Godhead. Are they " I will see three in heaven" type trinitarians or are they "its all one" type trinity

I believe that a person is justified/saved/regenerated by faith separate and apart from water and/or Spirit baptism. Actually, there are a lot of Apostolics who believe the same. If a person is truly justified/saved/born again by faith without water and/or Spirit baptism, there are multitudes of people all around us --many in trinity churches--who are our brothers and sisters. So, I attend a trinity church and fellowship lots of trinity people who are, in my opinion, part of the Body of Christ/the Church of Jesus Christ/the Family of God.

You mentioned two "differences" between trinity and oneness folks, water baptism and godhead view.

1. Well, I believe that water baptism according to the Bible is:
--for a repentant believer
--to be done by immersion if practically possible
--the name of Jesus with or without titles such as "Lord" or "Christ" should be spoken.
I realize all Christians do not see water baptism the same way as I do so I respect their opinions

2. godhead, well there are certainly lots of differences among us --whether we call ourselves trinity or oneness-- on the "godhead." That's quite evident by reading some of the posts on this forum. In my opinion we humans will never completely understand or explain our infinite triune God --He's way too big to fit into our puny minds-- so let's quit arguing about Him and just love Him and serve Him.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Sam

I believe that a person is justified/saved/regenerated by faith separate and apart from water and/or Spirit baptism. Actually, there are a lot of Apostolics who believe the same. If a person is truly justified/saved/born again by faith without water and/or Spirit baptism, there are multitudes of people all around us --many in trinity churches--who are our brothers and sisters. So, I attend a trinity church and fellowship lots of trinity people who are, in my opinion, part of the Body of Christ/the Church of Jesus Christ/the Family of God.

You mentioned two "differences" between trinity and oneness folks, water baptism and godhead view.

1. Well, I believe that water baptism according to the Bible is:
--for a repentant believer
--to be done by immersion if practically possible
--the name of Jesus with or without titles such as "Lord" or "Christ" should be spoken.
I realize all Christians do not see water baptism the same way as I do so I respect their opinions

2. godhead, well there are certainly lots of differences among us --whether we call ourselves trinity or oneness-- on the "godhead." That's quite evident by reading some of the posts on this forum. In my opinion we humans will never completely understand or explain our infinite triune God --He's way too big to fit into our puny minds-- so let's quit arguing about Him and just love Him and serve Him.

If God had not intended us to understand his Godhead, there would not be so many scriptures that claim He is one.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

If God had not intended us to understand his Godhead, there would not be so many scriptures that claim He is one.

Isaiah 43:10-11 from the KJV
10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Both trinitarians and oneness believe that there is one God. Both trinitarians and oneness believe that Jesus is that one God come in flesh. We both understand that there is one God. What we do not understand is all the minute details of how God can be one and three at the same time. We have several opinions expressed here on the forum from time to time about "oneness" and we all seem to disagree with one another, insult one another, and make fun of one another over it.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Sam

Isaiah 43:10-11 from the KJV
10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Both trinitarians and oneness believe that there is one God. Both trinitarians and oneness believe that Jesus is that one God come in flesh. We both understand that there is one God. What we do not understand is all the minute details of how God can be one and three at the same time. We have several opinions expressed here on the forum from time to time about "oneness" and we all seem to disagree with one another, insult one another, and make fun of one another over it.

It depends on the trinitarians perspective. Many believe "they" are one in unity or in love like a mother and father. Regardless of the minute details, God says he is a me, not a they. Anytime you assert the word "they" to God, you make him something He is not and that is dangerous.

While there are trinitarians (who really aren't trinitarians) who believe God is one being, like water and vapor and ice are different forms of the same substance. Those are what I call inwardly oneness believers who don't even know it hehe

[Sam]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

...God says he is a me, not a they. Anytime you assert the word "they" to God, you make him something He is not and that is dangerous....

yet in John 14:23 Jesus said, "If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him."

1 John 5:7 says there are three, then goes on to say who those three are --the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost-- then conitinues with these three are one. Based on the words "there are three"(tri) and "these three are one" (unity) some Apostolic teachers and preachers speak of the "triune" God, and that's where some Christians see a triunity or trinity.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Sam

yet in John 14:23 Jesus said, "If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him."

1 John 5:7 says there are three, then goes on to say who those three are --the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost-- then conitinues with these three are one. Based on the words "there are three"(tri) and "these three are one" (unity) some Apostolic teachers and preachers speak of the "triune" God, and that's where some Christians see a triunity or trinity.

The we in John 14:23 is not God talking to God and that is in error if one thinks that. Paul perfectly explains this in 1 Timothy 2:5.

The 'They' in trinitarian lingo refers to multiple persons who are God. The "we" in this verse refers to the man Christ speaking to the Father (GOd, i.e. Word, father, Spirit)

I know there isn't in many that knowledge but regarding GOD (Father, Word, Spirit) said I even I am the Lord and beside me there is no Saviour.

The three is a me, not a they.

[SavedLou]

Originally Posted by Sam

...Both trinitarians and oneness believe that there is one God. Both trinitarians and oneness believe that Jesus is that one God come in flesh. We both understand that there is one God. What we do not understand is all the minute details of how God can be one and three at the same time. We have several opinions expressed here on the forum from time to time about "oneness" and we all seem to disagree with one another, insult one another, and make fun of one another over it.

So true Bro Sam. Having been raised trinitarian, it makes it difficult to sit through a service where we pray openly from the pulpit that they would be delivered from their "pagan" beliefs of worshipping "3 gods". But in reality, the majority of oneness folks don't know that most trinitarians don't believe that way. Some do, but most are just confused by the trinity and believe more closely to oneness. I did. LOL--most Godhead sermons I heard in the Baptist church were quoting the same scriptures oneness uses.

In response to the OP, I completely sympathize as I am going through something similar, but thankfully my hubby and I are on the same page. After 12 years in this, I have really been searching things out lately and am now at a crossroads, as SO many that I know are. We're torn between wanting to attend a Jesus' name baptizing, HG filled church, but tired of man-made standards being such an issue and the same ole, same ole sermons that never change. "Laying again the foundations" and not much else. And I and several others have left the choir, etc b/c our pastor has asked ministry/platform folks to look the part 100% and we don't anymore. It's basically impossible to find a church to feel completely comfortable in. Praying for direction!

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by SavedLou

So true Bro Sam. Having been raised trinitarian, it makes it difficult to sit through a service where we pray openly from the pulpit that they would be delivered from their "pagan" beliefs of worshipping "3 gods". But in reality, the majority of oneness folks don't know that most trinitarians don't believe that way. Some do, but most are just confused by the trinity and believe more closely to oneness. I did. LOL--most Godhead sermons I heard in the Baptist church were quoting the same scriptures oneness uses.

In response to the OP, I completely sympathize as I am going through something similar, but thankfully my hubby and I are on the same page. After 12 years in this, I have really been searching things out lately and am now at a crossroads, as SO many that I know are. We're torn between wanting to attend a Jesus' name baptizing, HG filled church, but tired of man-made standards being such an issue and the same ole, same ole sermons that never change. "Laying again the foundations" and not much else. And I and several others have left the choir, etc b/c our pastor has asked ministry/platform folks to look the part 100% and we don't anymore. It's basically impossible to find a church to feel completely comfortable in. Praying for direction!

True Many Trinitarians are actually oneness!!
The standards, really pray and seek God. The standards are boundaries to help us stay on the right path. They are banners to what we are inwardly. Early Holiness preached these under the inspiration of God. Catholic and protestant churches all had plain dress as a practice until modern times ( we can look at pictures to see)

Standards are not how we earn salvation and that seems to be the teaching. Pray that God will lead you the right direction and remember, its only by his grace we can be holy, whether outward or inward or both.

[SavedLou]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

True Many Trinitarians are actually oneness!!
The standards, really pray and seek God. The standards are boundaries to help us stay on the right path. They are banners to what we are inwardly. Early Holiness preached these under the inspiration of God. Catholic and protestant churches all had plain dress as a practice until modern times ( we can look at pictures to see)

Standards are not how we earn salvation and that seems to be the teaching. Pray that God will lead you the right direction and remember, its only by his grace we can be holy, whether outward or inward or both.

Thanks for your kindness and sincerity. I think they are banners usually only to those that are familiar with Pentecost though. Simply seeing someone dressing the standards rarely impresses or convicts people as we would like to think. It is the fruit of the Spirit that does this. Now I certainly believe in modesty, moderation and morality. I simply feel that so many man made standards are not truly Biblically based. They were founded with wonderful intentions, but most are usually based on one scripture. I do still hold to some standards, but I am growing weary of the inconsistencies. Ex. No jewelry but you can wear rhinestone embellished broaches, hair accessories, feathers in the hair, etc. We embrace "it's a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven" and reject in the very same book "it's a shame for a woman to speak in church". We say man is over woman spiritually but ordain women to be pastors. You go to UPC camps and see girls in skirts/dresses that are skin tight but who would never wear pants (gasp). I believe in principles, such as women should look like women and men like men, but things like ONE scripture on men's garments in the OT leaves room for debate. I just want people to respect that there are God-fearing, sincere Pentecostals that may have a different opinion than others and they shouldn't be made to feel they are eternally lost and backslidden, you know?