Hell's Best Kept Secret? Ray Comfort

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by J-Roc

No, Prax...this entire discussion I've had was not based on the original post regarding Comfort....it was from Keith's comment about fallacy....that is where this entire debate stemmed from. You apparently missed the point of everything I've been saying...

You quote K4H

Also it exposes the fallacy of the doctrine that come to Jesus because he will make you happy,give you purpose, fullfill your deepest longings, etc., instead he will save you from your sins.

Uh....yes isn't this what I HAVE been talking about? What we preach to the LOST? The reason we give to them to COME to Jesus in the first place?

This is EXACTLY what I have been talking about. We are discussing HOW to reach the lost...HOW to convert them...not post conversion. True and False conversion. That seems to be exactly what Keith is speaking about here.

What do we preach to uncoverted to LEAD them to Jesus...not what do we preach to the converted who have already been LED to Jesus...that seems to be what this discussion was about and what Keith was saying there

[J-Roc]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

You quote K4H

Also it exposes the fallacy of the doctrine that come to Jesus because he will make you happy,give you purpose, fullfill your deepest longings, etc., instead he will save you from your sins.

Uh....yes isn't this what I HAVE been talking about? What we preach to the LOST? The reason we give to them to COME to Jesus in the first place?

This is EXACTLY what I have been talking about. We are discussing HOW to reach the lost...HOW to convert them...not post conversion. True and False conversion. That seems to be exactly what Keith is speaking about here.

What do we preach to uncoverted to LEAD them to Jesus...not what do we preach to the converted who have already been LED to Jesus...that seems to be what this discussion was about and what Keith was saying there

If that is what you have been talking about then we are both discussing the same issue and are taking opposite views on the issue...therefore, nobody has lost the point of the discussion!

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by J-Roc

If that is what you have been talking about then we are both discussing the same issue and are taking opposite views on the issue...therefore, nobody has lost the point of the discussion!

So you tell the sinner "God just wants to love you and make you happy" and avoid telling them "we are all sinners and judgement awaits sinners, but there is good news. Jesus died so we don't have to go to Hell. We need to put our faith in him and repent of our sins"???

See, it's not the temporal perks that keep me....it's the eternal perks that keep me, but it was the fact that I realized I was a sinner and that should I die I would find my faith would be to stand before God in judgement and NOT have the blood of Jesus on my side. The Eternal perks are that I won't have to be judged. I won't have to go to hell. I have eternal life with Jesus. Yes I have that mansion, but I realized this from the beginning....I have sinned and was worthy of death, but Jesus saved me from a fate worse than death and for that I am forever grateful.

His love would not have meant much for me back then had I not known all that. And for many people whose lives are pretty good, they have money, family and even happiness...telling them simply "God just wants to love you and put a smile on you face" is meaningless.

Not everyone that needs God or comes to God does so because they were in dire straits and unhappy

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by jroc

...."in my father's house are many mansions"....this makes me happy, gives me purpose and fulfills my deepest longings!!! I've seen enough suffering on this side of eternity and have hope for a better place of eternal fellowship and relationship and community!!!

Yes this makes YOU happy....you are converted. These are edifying words to the converted. But what Keith is speaking of are the words we speak to the unconverted in order to LEAD them to Christ.

Yes, we can tell them there is eternity to expect, but what the thread is about isn't eternal rewards, but NOW rewards. The fallacy is that we reach them by simply telling them they will be happy, that life will be much better. Just like the flight. It's not the telling them about their possible destination that is the fallacy, it's the telling them that if they turn to Christ He will make your flight just great.

And as any believer knows, this walk since being converted has it's ups and downs.

And when they experience those downs, they feel cheated just like the guy on the flight who is told if he wears this parachute it will make his flight better...when the reality was that the ONLY reason for the parachute was that in the event of trouble he will be secure...the parachute actually was uncomfortable but for the man that is not disappointed by the stories that it will make your flight better, but instead is wearing it because he knows it can save him, he does not mind wearing it.

True and false conversion. True conversion is knowing that Christ died for the ungodly...sinners like you and I and otherwise we were all lost. The fallacy here is not telling them about eternal life...the eternal perks....the fallacy is about NOT telling them WHY they need Jesus...WHY they need to repent and instead focus on TEMPORAL perks...not eternal perks....which is a fallacy

[J-Roc]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Yes, we can tell them there is eternity to expect, but what the thread is about isn't eternal rewards, but NOW rewards. The fallacy is that we reach them by simply telling them they will be happy, that life will be much better. Just like the flight. It's not the telling them about their possible destination that is the fallacy, it's the telling them that if they turn to Christ He will make your flight just great.

And as any believer knows, this walk since being converted has it's ups and downs.

And when they experience those downs, they feel cheated just like the guy on the flight who is told if he wears this parachute it will make his flight better...when the reality was that the ONLY reason for the parachute was that in the event of trouble he will be secure...the parachute actually was uncomfortable but for the man that is not disappointed by the stories that it will make your flight better, but instead is wearing it because he knows it can save him, he does not mind wearing it.

True and false conversion. True conversion is knowing that Christ died for the ungodly...sinners like you and I and otherwise we were all lost. The fallacy here is not telling them about eternal life...the eternal perks....the fallacy is about NOT telling them WHY they need Jesus...WHY they need to repent and instead focus on TEMPORAL perks...not eternal perks....which is a fallacy

There are NOW and TEMPORAL perks....and some of them are internal peace, joy and love in the midst of suffering and pain...to think there are NO benefits here on earth for being a christian and that all the benefits will only be seen in the after life is simply naive...I can name a gazillion benefits for living as a christian....as an example, if my boss gets irate and flips out, while others are harboring bitterness and get moody, I have inner peace and celebrate in my joy...this is just but one minor example and I can probably write volumes of books showing how I benefit here on earth for being a christian......everyone already understands that life on earth is difficult...that is the obvious...who would be so naive to think that becoming a christian means everything will go your way and the Jesus is a magic jeanie? But to say that wealth and prosperity for a christian is not providence from God is truly not understanding the Bible....does that mean that all christians will prosper in that manner here on earth....absolutely not!!! But when it does happen for a God-fearing and devout christian, surely it is a gift from God.

If I start working at 9am and you start working at 9pm and we're done with work at 10pm and God pays us the same wages for our work....who am I to get jealous over what my Master decides to pay you...should I get jealous over my brother....absolutely not...

I am not saying that we are to teach false promises, but to say that there is fallacy in thinking there are benefits here on earth as there will be in heaven for being a christian is irresponsible...and this does not suggest that there is not suffering for being a christian either....many are and have been killed for the cause of Christ.....

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by J-Roc

There are NOW and TEMPORAL perks....and some of them are internal peace, joy and love in the midst of suffering and pain...to think there are NO benefits here on earth for being a christian and that all the benefits will only be seen in the after life is simply naive...

The issue is not and was not whether or not there are temporal perks.

I can name a gazillion benefits for living as a christian

Let's not forget the topic again...it is NOT "living as a Christian"...it's true and false conversion...what we preach to the sinner...how we lead them to Christ.

.

...as an example, if my boss gets irate and flips out, while others are harboring bitterness and get moody, I have inner peace and celebrate in my joy...this is just but one minor example and I can probably write volumes of books showing how I benefit here on earth for being a christian......everyone already understands that life on earth is difficult...that is the obvious...who would be so naive to think that becoming a christian means everything will go your way and the Jesus is a magic jeanie?

To the uninitiated and unexperienced sinner who has not converted yet, he may be that naive. That is why we do what Jesus did. He revealed the persons real need..NEED for Christ. Jesus died for the sinners...not for the unhappy.

But to say that wealth and prosperity for a christian is not providence from God is truly not understanding the Bible....does that mean that all christians will prosper in that manner here on earth....absolutely not!!! But when it does happen for a God-fearing and devout christian, surely it is a gift from God.

Once again, the subject is what to preach to the unconverted unrepented sinner...did Jesus preach "God wants to make you a millionaire?" who said anywhere that wealth and prosperity for a Christian is not providence from God? I don't think you are understanding the point being made. We are NOT talking about Christians. We are talking about the UNCONVERTED. That is what Keith was talking about when he mentioned the fallacy...you keep saying that is what you are talking about but in every post you seem to be talking about those that ARE already converted.

My point earlier was, what about the UNCONVERTED that are NOT poor, that are NOT lonely, that do NOT feel unloved...that are NOT sad...that think they have everything? DO you entice them with things they don't think they need or believe they already have? Or do you address their heart, get right to the heart of the matter like Jesus did with the woman at the well?

If I start working at 9am and you start working at 9pm and we're done with work at 10pm and God pays us the same wages for our work....who am I to get jealous over what my Master decides to pay you...should I get jealous over my brother....absolutely not...

Huh?!?! What does that have to do with anything this thread is and has been about, or what I said?

I am not saying that we are to teach false promises, but to say that there is fallacy in thinking there are benefits here on earth as there will be in heaven for being a christian is irresponsible...and this does not suggest that there is not suffering for being a christian either....many are and have been killed for the cause of Christ.....

Nobody said it is a fallacy in thinking there ARE benefits. It was said it's a fallacy to USE those benefits as some sort of enticement to get someone to suddenly repent and have faith in Jesus. Being saved...we are talking about the UNCONVERTED UNSAVED NOW, Being saved is not about recognizing that Jesus is the perk giver and died so you can have perks.

Having saving faith is the Faith that he SAVES us FROM something...that something is our sins. You save someone when you show them their real eternal need. Their need is not that they need a mansion. They NEED redemption from sin. That is why Jesus died. We are leading them to the SAVIOR...once they meet the savior they realize the perks

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

The issue is not and was not whether or not there are temporal perks.


Let's not forget the topic again...it is NOT "living as a Christian"...it's true and false conversion...what we preach to the sinner...how we lead them to Christ.

.
To the uninitiated and unexperienced sinner who has not converted yet, he may be that naive. That is why we do what Jesus did. He revealed the persons real need..NEED for Christ. Jesus died for the sinners...not for the unhappy.



Once again, the subject is what to preach to the unconverted unrepented sinner...did Jesus preach "God wants to make you a millionaire?" who said anywhere that wealth and prosperity for a Christian is not providence from God? I don't think you are understanding the point being made. We are NOT talking about Christians. We are talking about the UNCONVERTED. That is what Keith was talking about when he mentioned the fallacy...you keep saying that is what you are talking about but in every post you seem to be talking about those that ARE already converted.

My point earlier was, what about the UNCONVERTED that are NOT poor, that are NOT lonely, that do NOT feel unloved...that are NOT sad...that think they have everything? DO you entice them with things they don't think they need or believe they already have? Or do you address their heart, get right to the heart of the matter like Jesus did with the woman at the well?


Huh?!?! What does that have to do with anything this thread is and has been about, or what I said?


Nobody said it is a fallacy in thinking there ARE benefits. It was said it's a fallacy to USE those benefits as some sort of enticement to get someone to suddenly repent and have faith in Jesus. Being saved...we are talking about the UNCONVERTED UNSAVED NOW, Being saved is not about recognizing that Jesus is the perk giver and died so you can have perks.

Having saving faith is the Faith that he SAVES us FROM something...that something is our sins. You save someone when you show them their real eternal need. Their need is not that they need a mansion. They NEED redemption from sin. That is why Jesus died. We are leading them to the SAVIOR...once they meet the savior they realize the perks

Post of the Day ...

[Pastor Keith]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

The issue is not and was not whether or not there are temporal perks.


Let's not forget the topic again...it is NOT "living as a Christian"...it's true and false conversion...what we preach to the sinner...how we lead them to Christ.

.
To the uninitiated and unexperienced sinner who has not converted yet, he may be that naive. That is why we do what Jesus did. He revealed the persons real need..NEED for Christ. Jesus died for the sinners...not for the unhappy.



Once again, the subject is what to preach to the unconverted unrepented sinner...did Jesus preach "God wants to make you a millionaire?" who said anywhere that wealth and prosperity for a Christian is not providence from God? I don't think you are understanding the point being made. We are NOT talking about Christians. We are talking about the UNCONVERTED. That is what Keith was talking about when he mentioned the fallacy...you keep saying that is what you are talking about but in every post you seem to be talking about those that ARE already converted.

My point earlier was, what about the UNCONVERTED that are NOT poor, that are NOT lonely, that do NOT feel unloved...that are NOT sad...that think they have everything? DO you entice them with things they don't think they need or believe they already have? Or do you address their heart, get right to the heart of the matter like Jesus did with the woman at the well?


Huh?!?! What does that have to do with anything this thread is and has been about, or what I said?


Nobody said it is a fallacy in thinking there ARE benefits. It was said it's a fallacy to USE those benefits as some sort of enticement to get someone to suddenly repent and have faith in Jesus. Being saved...we are talking about the UNCONVERTED UNSAVED NOW, Being saved is not about recognizing that Jesus is the perk giver and died so you can have perks.

Having saving faith is the Faith that he SAVES us FROM something...that something is our sins. You save someone when you show them their real eternal need. Their need is not that they need a mansion. They NEED redemption from sin. That is why Jesus died. We are leading them to the SAVIOR...once they meet the savior they realize the perks

Prax carry on, couldn't have said it any better, even if I really tried.