Isaiah 3 and jewelry...

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Socialite

Actually, her statement was NOT an ad hominem. It was a point she makes, and proceeds from there to explain WHY she believes your point was "not making sense." How is that an ad hominem? Put away your glossary! lol

Then grab your "glossary"! Yes, she was making an ad hominem. But, running out of time to explin....gotta' teach a Bible study tonight, in which I'll be demonstrating your logical fallacies to the many there.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by rdp

Then grab your "glossary"! Yes, she was making an ad hominem. But, running out of time to explin....gotta' teach a Bible study tonight, in which I'll be demonstrating your logical fallacies to the many there.

Was not!

[MissBrattified]

rdp,

You do not want to take I Timothy 2 literally, because if you do, you will have to allow jewelry that isn't made of gold or pearls or costly metals. It mentions specifics and doesn't say that decorative pieces aren't allowed. If you use CONTEXT, however, you can support the point that overall, modesty in all things is preferred. If you take a literal approach, there are holes in your list of rules. I also hope you preach against buying expensive clothing. (To be consistent, I'm sure you do - but I would prefer a confirmation on your part.)

Additionally, there's the question of costly array; do we go by what it actually cost? Or by what it SHOULD have cost? I routinely buy clothing at a discount or on consignment that cost much more originally, but I didn't pay that price. So is it "costly" if it's high quality and has a related value? Or is it costly if I buy something I can't afford? Is it only "costly" if it's expensive, and what would you call expensive? Is it more important that my clothing LOOK cheap or actually BE cheap? Should we strive to avoid offense and make sure that whatever clothes we purchase look like they were sewn together by elves, using the cheapest, lowest quality fabric available?

P.S. I hope you preach against braided hair.

If I take the verse literally, then there is a LOT of jewelry I am free to wear.

[rdp]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

rdp,

You do not want to take I Timothy 2 literally, because if you do, you will have to allow jewelry that isn't made of gold or pearls or costly metals. It mentions specifics and doesn't say that decorative pieces aren't allowed. If you use CONTEXT, however, you can support the point that overall, modesty in all things is preferred. If you take a literal approach, there are holes in your list of rules. I also hope you preach against buying expensive clothing. (To be consistent, I'm sure you do - but I would prefer a confirmation on your part.)

Additionally, there's the question of costly array; do we go by what it actually cost? Or by what it SHOULD have cost? I routinely buy clothing at a discount or on consignment that cost much more originally, but I didn't pay that price. So is it "costly" if it's high quality and has a related value? Or is it costly if I buy something I can't afford? Is it only "costly" if it's expensive, and what would you call expensive? Is it more important that my clothing LOOK cheap or actually BE cheap? Should we strive to avoid offense and make sure that whatever clothes we purchase look like they were sewn together by elves, using the cheapest, lowest quality fabric available?

P.S. I hope you preach against braided hair.

If I take the verse literally, then there is a LOT of jewelry I am free to wear.

I've already responded to most of these type arguments previously in this thread. So, you'll have to go back & reread them if you want clarity. But, YES, we preach against braided hair, costly apparel, etc......Why? Because it's in God's Word! Also, you cannot offer a radical separation of the literal text & context as you suggest above. It takes the former to get to the latter!

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by rdp

I've already responded to most of these type arguments previously in this thread. So, you'll have to go back & reread them if you want clarity. But, YES, we preach against braided hair, costly apparel, etc......Why? Because it's in God's Word! Also, you cannot offer a radical separation of the literal text & context as you suggest above. It takes the former to get to the latter!

I give you props for consistency then. At least there's something!

I agree with the overall concept of modesty and moderation, and "decorating" ourselves with good works rather than what we wear. I'm just not convinced that the meaning of the passage is that specifically wearing those materials or wearing a beautiful dress is sinful! It's pointing out traditionally decorative items, and saying that good works is the preferable adornment for a woman. I agree with that principle.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

I give you props for consistency then. At least there's something!

I agree with the overall concept of modesty and moderation, and "decorating" ourselves with good works rather than what we wear. I'm just not convinced that the meaning of the passage is that specifically wearing those materials or wearing a beautiful dress is sinful! It's pointing out traditionally decorative items, and saying that good works is the preferable adornment for a woman. I agree with that principle.

MB, specifically, and to his audience, do you know what Paul was addressing?

We know the Apostles didn't just start scratching together lists of rules. So what is going on that he's making these remarks? Any idea?

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Socialite

MB, specifically, and to his audience, do you know what Paul was addressing?

We know the Apostles didn't just start scratching together lists of rules. So what is going on that he's making these remarks? Any idea?

Not really; I think he was addressing some disorderly conduct in church, and I don't think his admonition to women to be "silent" in church was a literal command. Otherwise, how would women pray, sing and testify? He was having to address people being out of order. It seems logical to me that in the same breath, he would encourage women to adorn themselves with "good works." He addresses the women again in chapter 5, pointing out that some are idle and "busybodies", and that he prefers the stay home and guide the house and raise their children.

You can fill me in on the rest!

P.S. Did you know that "guide the house" in I Timothy 5:14 means to be head of the house?

"oikodespoteō - From G3617; to be the head of (that is, rule) a family: - guide the house."

Interesting.

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Socialite

MB, specifically, and to his audience, do you know what Paul was addressing?

We know the Apostles didn't just start scratching together lists of rules. So what is going on that he's making these remarks? Any idea?

Good point


I notice out of all the commandments in the law not one mentions jewelry etc.....

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Good point


I notice out of all the commandments in the law not one mentions jewelry etc.....

Or ciggarettes....nice argument from silence. But, I thought I read "Put O-F-F [not 'on'] your O-R-N-A-M-E-N-T-S.....", immediately after Moses received the Law.

Let me guess...this doesn't mean what it says either...right?

[rdp]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

I give you props for consistency then. At least there's something!

I agree with the overall concept of modesty and moderation, and "decorating" ourselves with good works rather than what we wear. I'm just not convinced that the meaning of the passage is that specifically wearing those materials or wearing a beautiful dress is sinful! It's pointing out traditionally decorative items, and saying that good works is the preferable adornment for a woman. I agree with that principle.

I would agree w/ much [though not all] of this, but would simply add that the literal text states "not with gold jewelry, pearls, or costly apparel." I have to have an honest heart & teach/preach these actual words, just as I do Acts 2:38...which we do, including wedding bands, watches, etc.