Refutation of Pentecostal Beliefs

[Sam]

As far as using musical instruments in the church, as far as I know there is no New Testament injunction to "...praise Him with the sound of the trumpet; praise Him with the psaltery and harp. Praise Him with the timbrel and dance: praise Him wit the stringed instruments and organs. Praise Him upon the loud cymbals; praise Him upon the high sounding cymbals..." like there is in the Old Testament.

There is, however, an exhortation to be (constantly and ongoingly) filled with the Spirit and one of the results of that is that we are to be "speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord" (Ephesians 5:19). So, if we follow the Scriptures we are to worship God in psalms but not do it with the musical instruments that the psalms encourage us to use? It's OK to sing out "...praise Him with the sound of the trumpet; praise Him with the psaltery and harp. Praise Him with the timbrel and dance: praise Him with the stringed instruments and organs. Praise Him upon the loud cymbals; praise Him upon the high sounding cymbals..." but we shouldn't use any of those instruments we are singing about?

[Dillxn]

Originally Posted by Sam

The only time it is recorded that people understood what was spoken in tongues was on the Day of Pentecost in Acts chapter 2 when there are about 15 languages mentioned for the 120 who were speaking with tongues. When speaking with tongues is mentioned in Acts 10 and Acts 19 and inferred in Acts 8 there is nothing said about someone understanding what was said. In the Corinthian assembly the Apostle Paul says that when someone speaks with tongues nobody understands what it said (1 Corinthians 12:2) and that the speaker is not really speaking to men (verse 2 also) and that is why the gift of interpretation is necessary.

Do you believe baptism is required to be saved? Because Baptists often cite the fact that people were instructed to merely believe and they'd be saved (baptism not mentioned). However we find in Mark 16, among other places, that baptism is required. Something must only be mentioned once in the Bible to be true.

So by the same logic, if it was stated once that speaking in tongues was of human languages, but other times not specified what language it was, then we must assume it was always of human languages. Since we do not have any scripture stating otherwise. And using the scriptures you posted to infer that is a stretch at best.

Originally Posted by Sam

"When that which is perfect is come" is taken by some to mean the completed canon of the Scriptures. Others see it as the perfection (rapture) of the church when faith will give way to sight and hope will turn to experience (1 Cor 13:10) when we will no longer see an imperfect image in the mirror of the Word (1 Corinthians 13:12). This is some times compared to the need for the ministries of apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers until the church reaches perfection in Ephesians 4:11-15.

I agree with what you're saying and I just happen to interpret it as the former, for the reasons I listed in my article. However, I don't believe it can be the latter because I don't believe in the "rapture" that was developed by the "Left Behind" books.

Originally Posted by acerrak

it sounds like you have become a church of christ member.

I am!

Originally Posted by acerrak

though i am not going to adress everything, i am going to address the music.
we see in the old testament that music was used to glorify God, we see this in many scriptures.

That's the problem, all of your references are of old Jewish law. Which of course is not what we follow today as Christians. See my response to this in my article.

Originally Posted by acerrak

Though it should never be a heaven or hell issue.

Hmm well I don't think either of us can make that call, to be honest. I think we can only strive to do God's will as best as we can, based on His word.

Originally Posted by acerrak

the thing Here is your interpretation of the bible correct? which bible is more correct than others, Jesus stated to the Pharassee's that you search these scriptures thinking you will find eternal life, but the scriptures testify of Me.

the Bible is a testimony of Gods Grace, and Paul aslo stated we look through a darkened glass, yet but one day face to face.

When that which is Perfect Comes, that is the Kingdom of God. i dont know of anything on this earth that is perfect, Its God, he is Perfect

revelation 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

I'd contend to say that His word is perfect.

Originally Posted by Sam

As far as using musical instruments in the church, as far as I know there is no New Testament injunction to "...praise Him with the sound of the trumpet; praise Him with the psaltery and harp. Praise Him with the timbrel and dance: praise Him wit the stringed instruments and organs. Praise Him upon the loud cymbals; praise Him upon the high sounding cymbals..." like there is in the Old Testament.

There is, however, an exhortation to be (constantly and ongoingly) filled with the Spirit and one of the results of that is that we are to be "speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord" (Ephesians 5:19). So, if we follow the Scriptures we are to worship God in psalms but not do it with the musical instruments that the psalms encourage us to use? It's OK to sing out "...praise Him with the sound of the trumpet; praise Him with the psaltery and harp. Praise Him with the timbrel and dance: praise Him with the stringed instruments and organs. Praise Him upon the loud cymbals; praise Him upon the high sounding cymbals..." but we shouldn't use any of those instruments we are singing about?

Oh haha no I didn't realize that I was being unclear here. No I fully believe the Jews were told to use instruments. No question there. I am just saying that the new law that Christ brought does not include worshiping with instruments and since we follow that law and not the old law, we should not use instruments.

[acerrak]

Originally Posted by Dillxn

That's the problem, all of your references are of old Jewish law. Which of course is not what we follow today as Christians. See my response to this in my article.

also you just over looked my parable on the Lost son, care to comment on that for me please.

Tbh the first 5 books of the bible or as they Jews reffered to it, the torah (humash)or pentateuch.

these are jewish Law, those hold the commandments of God and statues for the people.

Both proverbs and psalms was books that were later added to (our old testament canon) though these people who were under the Law were encouraged to praise God.

David who is noted to be a man after Gods own heart worshiped God, so these 2 books psalms and proverbs or chronicles and even major and minor prophets etc were considered seperate and are history books and music books, and prophecies, these were never reffered to as jewish law. So you need to look at that again.

some time you would see Jesus state the law and the Prophets.
The law is the law of Moses and is your Genesis, leviticus, numbers deuteronomey and exodus. they went together with the ten commandments Given.

so you cant consider psalms a jewish law

So by the same logic, if it was stated once that speaking in tongues was of human languages, but other times not specified what language it was, then we must assume it was always of human languages. Since we do not have any scripture stating otherwise. And using the scriptures you posted to infer that is a stretch at best.

No we dont assume, that is mans error to assume. we could say it was always human language, and no doubt i say much was, but Paul did make a comment about tounges or languages of Men, and angels,


i also want to make a point here

That's the problem, all of your references are of old Jewish law. Which of course is not what we follow today as Christians. See my response to this in my article.

i find this some what disturbing.

The Lord said
Jeremiah 31:33 (New International Version)

33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the LORD.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.

also stated in hebrews 8;10. Just what laws do you think God is writing on our hearts? I bet many of those laws come from the Old testament.

Jesus stated in His own words he didnt come to do away with the Law, infact He was a jew He upheld the Law, or he wouldnt be sinless.

Originally Posted by acerrak

I am!

My boss is to, and we have had many of the same discussions and bible studies, He is still a church of Christ member, and i am still a pentacostal, and we still talk about God and open about many things

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Dillxn

...
Oh haha no I didn't realize that I was being unclear here. No I fully believe the Jews were told to use instruments. No question there. I am just saying that the new law that Christ brought does not include worshiping with instruments and since we follow that law and not the old law, we should not use instruments.

We should sing about using instruments but not actually use instruments?
OK, don't actually use instruments while you are singing about worshiping God with instruments?

[acerrak]

Originally Posted by Sam

We should sing about using instruments but not actually use instruments?
OK, don't actually use instruments while you are singing about worshiping God with instruments?

they believe brother its ok to use instruments outside of church, but not in the church building itself. church = building. sorta odd, you can praise God with Gospel music and instruments all you want outside of Church, but dont let it in the building!