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Old 12-04-2010, 08:20 PM
houston houston is offline
Isaiah 56:4-5


 
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Re: A ? about messianic jews.

Quote:
Hashaliac:

Gentile Oneness believers, for the most part, view God as a three-sided monolith consisting of three facings, consisting of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.
There is a piece of art that is what you describe. It may be of greek origin. It depicts "modalism". Funny, some "oneness" people that I knew believed that it was a representation of the trinity.
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Old 12-04-2010, 09:15 PM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Re: A ? about messianic jews.

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Originally Posted by houston View Post
There is a piece of art that is what you describe. It may be of greek origin. It depicts "modalism". Funny, some "oneness" people that I knew believed that it was a representation of the trinity.
The trinity is shown in ancient art as a being with three faces. Oneness is one person with one face.

Just as God made man with spirit, soul and body, but one name and one person, God is three manifestations with one name and is One Person: Oneness.
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Old 12-05-2010, 11:55 AM
houston houston is offline
Isaiah 56:4-5


 
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Re: A ? about messianic jews.

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
The trinity is shown in ancient art as a being with three faces. Oneness is one person with one face.

Just as God made man with spirit, soul and body, but one name and one person, God is three manifestations with one name and is One Person: Oneness.
I cant find a pic of the "mask" that I am referencing. It was one head with three faces, a representation of modalism.
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Old 12-05-2010, 08:39 PM
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Sam Sam is offline
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Re: A ? about messianic jews.

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Originally Posted by houston View Post
I cant find a pic of the "mask" that I am referencing. It was one head with three faces, a representation of modalism.
like this?
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Old 12-05-2010, 09:11 PM
houston houston is offline
Isaiah 56:4-5


 
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Re: A ? about messianic jews.

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Originally Posted by Sam View Post
like this?
Yes, but it was more "greek" in appearance.
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Old 12-05-2010, 09:27 PM
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Re: A ? about messianic jews.

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Originally Posted by houston View Post
Yes, but it was more "greek" in appearance.
the pictures of the trinity/godhead are about as inspiring as our arguments among ourselves on the trinity/godhead.
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File Type: jpg trinity008.jpg (97.6 KB, 4 views)
File Type: jpg trinity009.jpg (76.7 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg trinity010.jpg (24.3 KB, 45 views)
File Type: jpg trinity011.jpg (48.3 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg trinity012.jpg (18.8 KB, 4 views)
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Old 12-05-2010, 09:32 PM
houston houston is offline
Isaiah 56:4-5


 
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Re: A ? about messianic jews.

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Originally Posted by Sam View Post
the pictures of the trinity/godhead are about as inspiring as our arguments among ourselves on the trinity/godhead.
Love the Lego's. LOL. A head with three faces is accurate of modalism, IMO. Now, three heads would accurately represent the triinity per our (mis)characterizations of the doctrine of the trinity. I remember discussing the oneness/trinity issue with a classmate in h.s. His grandfather was a pastor of a trinitarian pentecostal church. Joe says to me "...some people think that we believe in a three headed God. We don't... we believe in one God." *shrugs* Maybe in the end, it's all semantics.
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Old 12-06-2010, 10:07 AM
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Re: A ? about messianic jews.

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Originally Posted by houston View Post
I cant find a pic of the "mask" that I am referencing. It was one head with three faces, a representation of modalism.
But modalism is not actually a mask with three faces on the head. It is one face, as I understand it. The "three" is simply in the modes God does. He remains one person with one face in my estimation throughout my years as a monarchian modalist.
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Old 12-06-2010, 10:27 AM
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Re: A ? about messianic jews.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HaShaliach
As a final note on the Jewish view of God, and why the 'trin' view is not so foreign to them, especially to Messianic Jews:

Jewish literature is not totally silent on the mystery of God's plurality. It should be mentioned that this literature sometimes reflects the reality of god's plurality. The Zohar mentions that the Ancient One is revealed in three heads "which are united into one"... "described as being three" ... "But how can three names be one"... (This) can only be known by revelation of the Holy Spirit". Zohar, Vol III p.288. Vol. XI: p.43).
Do many messianic Jews consult the Zohar, HaShaliach? Exactly what place does the Zohar have amongst Messianic Jews?
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Last edited by mfblume; 12-06-2010 at 11:28 AM.
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Old 12-06-2010, 12:36 PM
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A.W. Bowman A.W. Bowman is offline
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Re: A ? about messianic jews.

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
Do many messianic Jews consult the Zohar, HaShaliach? Exactly what place does the Zohar have amongst Messianic Jews?
I doubt if a 'lot' of Messianic Jews rely on the Zohar much. However, the Kabbalah, as an oral teaching, does have a heavy influence in modern Judaism and, I think to a lesser extent, Messianic Judaism.

Even so, as you noted, the history the Kabbalah/Zohar has quite a trail behind it. The proponents of the oral teaching claim their history goes back to the Wilderness days, while the detractors claim it is the work of a 12th (? don't recall off hand) century Rabbi. But, even with that, the basic teaching was know from centuries earlier.

As Dr. Juster pointed out, the acceptance of the plural god precept was/is a Jewish position from both a scriptural language and religious (mystical) point of view - separate from Roman/Western Christianity religious views. It should also be noted that Jewish mysticism and Cristian mysticism are not that dissimilar, sharing a common historical background that starts with Abraham.

When we remember that much of our doctrines of today were first developed and codified by ministers who had little education in Christian or Hebrew history, a singular lack of knowledge in biblical languages, and even disparaged 'higher' education to a great extent, who, thinking that nothing more than the KJV of the Bible was necessary for a practicing Christian. Of course, to a a great extent, they were right!

But, here we have an example of deliberate ignorance concerning our Hebraic roots and religious heritage has come home to bite us. Thank you Emperor Constantine! Now, we must not only contend with the task of discrediting the Trinitarian Christian world view of God, but we must now confront our misconception of the Hebrew word view concerning the nature and composition of God.

Theologically, we are back to the issue of the Oneness 'indivisible deity' verses the Hebrew 'indivisible unity'. We can no longer claim that we, as Oneness believers, hold to the same view as the Jews concerning the manifestations of God. Our Torah linchpin of De 6:4 has also been effectively removed from the playing field.

The bottom line:

We can either choose to objectively reexamine our doctrinal positions, or we can choose to play the right/wrong games. I suspect we shall, as a whole, will continue with the games we are the most familiar with. Our traditions and the need for self-justification will override all other consideration.

A Disclaimer:

I have never attempted to convince anyone on this forum to change their belief system. Yet, what I have always encouraged is that everyone should continue to examine what they believe and why, and to make any required adjustments to the belief system based upon each individual's personal studies. I have also recommended that for those who are interested in where our Christian faith came from and how it was developed, to study its history, cultural background, the religious precepts upon which it is based, and the language in which it was originally communicated.

Therefore, everyone is now left with one of two choices. Leave everything you adhere to 'as is', or investigate your heritage more closely in order to discern the truth of your beliefs for yourself. The second choice is the most dangerous!
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