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  #171  
Old 12-06-2008, 07:21 PM
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Esther Esther is offline
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Re: Will I.B. retract if 2 billion don't die soon?

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Originally Posted by TK Burk View Post
While I was Assistant Editor at Endtime Ministries of Richmond, Indiana, I taught Bro. Baxter's view of prophecy including those about the beasts found in Daniel 7. As I began to study his teachings further, I found several glaring errors. Some of these are as follows:

The basis for the foundation upon which Endtime ministries is established is his teaching that each of the “beasts/animals” of Daniel 7 are easily recognized symbols of countries today. The Bear is Russia, the Eagle is the United States, the 10 horn kingdom is the European common market, and the Leopard is Germany.
Bro. Baxter used to think that the Nazi “Panzer” units were referring to “Panther” (Leopard) units of German. This, of course is not true. Many years ago a relative of Bro. Baxter’s asked a college professor about this. This man was consulted because he was considered an expert in symbolism. This professor stated to him that in the history of Germany there has never been a time when they used a leopard for their symbol. Never! As a matter of fact, on page 9 of Bro. Baxter’s book A Message for the President (AMFTP) he uses an article about the German Fourth Reich, and in it is found the symbol that Germany is known for—a two-headed eagle. In WW1 there was a poster showing German and US aircraft dog-fighting. Superimposed over these planes was a US Bald Eagle sinking its talons into a black two-headed eagle. This two headed eagle was then—and still is today – the known recognized symbol for Germany!

Bro. Baxter depends much on the Leopard for his teachings. He talks about the four heads of the leopard, and how Germany is now in their “Forth Reich.” The wound that would not heal (See Rev 13:3), he says refers to the leopard's (Germany’s) Berlin Wall. When this fell, he predicted that the world would enter into a New World Order. We all know that it did fall. Of course, everyone from President J.F. Kennedy to President Ronald Regan called for its demise. Endtime began at the time of the fall of the Berlin Wall. In fact, that occurrence was largely the catalyst for him launching his magazine. So you can see why having Germany as the leopard is so important to everything else he teaches. However, what must be kept in mind is that Bro. Baxter said these beasts are KNOWN SYMBOLS of nations today, and that NEVER in the history of Germany did they ever use a leopard for their national symbol. So in the end, Bro. Baxter’s own hermeneutic denies his own conclusion.

If you will notice, Bro. Baxter does not dwell very long on his leopard theory and goes through that area of his teaching rather quickly. He does this because he only has one newspaper article from February 20, 1975 (See page 11 of AMFTP). This article states that the chief battle tank for Germany is called a “Leopard Tank.” This sole article is all he offers to show where Germany is referred to as a Leopard—no other history, pictures, or anything. Of course if Endtime loses their “Leopard-Germany,” they also lose their teaching on the Berlin Wall and thereby a major reason why this ministry began.

Also, the Eagle and Uncle Sam cannot be correct as Endtime teaches either. Notice again the God-inspired wording for this: “The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it” (Daniel 7:4). For years Apostolics have hammered the fact that Matthew 28:19 says, “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the NAME of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” They have always made a point that every major translation of the Bible all agrees that it says the singular NAME and not the plural NAMES. Let’s stay consistent here with Daniel 7:4 as well.

This scripture says “lion” (singular) and “wings” (plural). Notice it says, “IT was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to IT.” IT is a singular pronoun, not a plural. This shows that this referred not to the plural wings but to the singular lion. Well the US and Uncle Sam just flew away with one reading of the scripture for what it literally says. If a person wants to change this, that is their prerogative, but as me and my house, we will leave IT as it is written.

Bro. Baxter also claims that the “Eagle Wings” in Revelation 12:14 refer to a US air-lift. Moses wrote, “Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself” (Exodus 19:4). Does this also mean that the US air-lifted the children of Israel out of Egypt long ago? If so, how was this possible? All kidding aside, Exodus 19:4 actually is the first mention of God using “eagle wings” in the Bible. According to the interpretative law of first mention, we should go to this occurrence first to see the context in which God used “eagle wings” then to better understand how He used them later. When we do this we see that Revelation 12:14 could not be referring to a US air-lift.

Now let’s look at the 10 Horn Kingdom: Bro. Baxter wrote that this would be the European Common Market (See AMFTP pages 10-21). The problem is this union has far surpassed the original 12 members he said it would have, and is now scheduled to be around 20 plus members in the near future. If his teachings were divinely inspired then, why is there such a blaring error now? What will this beast become now that this is no longer an acceptable explanation? Has God changed His mind? I think not.

If the line of Endtime interpretation that says we are to interpret beasts found within biblical prophecy by scanning newspapers for modern day equivalents is carried to its fullness, would we be correct to assume that the Ram mentioned in Daniel 8 is also referring to the USA? Why would I ask this? Well, the Dodge Motor Company produces the Dodge Ram Truck, and since this company is from the USA, then this ram in Daniel must be referring to the USA. This may be right?! After all, if Endtime can use tanks for Germany, why can’t trucks be used for the USA? I am of course jesting. However, with the type of interpretation Endtime supports one can only wonder where such guesswork could ultimately lead.

In conclusion I would like to quote Bro. Baxter as found on page 2 of his book AMFTP: “When God picked symbols to represent nations, he did not pick them arbitrarily nor did he choose symbols which had no significance. Rather he chose symbols that would be meaningful to the people who lived at the time of the prophecy’s fulfillment.” He is right in this! History records how the understandings of these various beasts played out through biblical times up until the times of Jesus. Bro. Baxter is a good man, but his prophecy teachings are based on a faulty hermeneutic. His prophetic conclusions would not – could not – be found without the help of newspaper and magazine articles. Such sources are always found as the center of all of his predictions. Since when are we supposed to “rightly divide the word of tabloids?” My Bible says it is to be “the Word of God!” The Bible already gives clear indicators within itself who these beasts were. When these are read within their context it is incredible how easy it is to properly interpret Daniel’s vision and the remainder his related prophecies.

I have nothing personal against Bro. Baxter. I deeply respect him. What I have written above is only about what he teaches.
I won't disagree with you over Germany because I don't know the history of symbolism for Germany. However, I think Bro. Baxter is correct on America as I understand it.

So if you think he is wrong on these two who do you think they are since you have studied this in-dept?

Thanks for keeping a good spirit about disagreeing with his thoughts and not the person, I appreciate that.
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  #172  
Old 12-06-2008, 07:47 PM
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TK Burk TK Burk is offline
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Re: Will I.B. retract if 2 billion don't die soon?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esther View Post
I won't disagree with you over Germany because I don't know the history of symbolism for Germany. However, I think Bro. Baxter is correct on America as I understand it.

So if you think he is wrong on these two who do you think they are since you have studied this in-dept?

Thanks for keeping a good spirit about disagreeing with his thoughts and not the person, I appreciate that.
Lion = Babylonian Empire
Bear = Medo-Persian Empire
Leopard = Greek Empire
4th Beast = Roman Empire

These agree with the succession of world empires, from Babylon until the time of Christ, as foretold in the image of Daniel 2:31-45.
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The Bible is open to those that want Truth, and if they want Truth, they find Truth. They watch individuals squabble over Bible symbolism on the Internet, and leave the Message boards to enter into the real world where live people dwell, and they find Truth. The World Wide Web is full of Internet Ayatollahs who speak their mind. There is only one Truth, and it is not hidden. No matter what anyone says, Truth still converts the sincere.
 -DD Benincasa, 12/06/03

www.tkburk.com
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  #173  
Old 12-06-2008, 07:51 PM
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TK Burk TK Burk is offline
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Re: Will I.B. retract if 2 billion don't die soon?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esther View Post
I won't disagree with you over Germany because I don't know the history of symbolism for Germany. However, I think Bro. Baxter is correct on America as I understand it.

So if you think he is wrong on these two who do you think they are since you have studied this in-dept?

Thanks for keeping a good spirit about disagreeing with his thoughts and not the person, I appreciate that.
But you have to respect the significance of the leopard being Germany. That was THE THING that launced everything else he teaches about these beasts.
__________________
The Bible is open to those that want Truth, and if they want Truth, they find Truth. They watch individuals squabble over Bible symbolism on the Internet, and leave the Message boards to enter into the real world where live people dwell, and they find Truth. The World Wide Web is full of Internet Ayatollahs who speak their mind. There is only one Truth, and it is not hidden. No matter what anyone says, Truth still converts the sincere.
 -DD Benincasa, 12/06/03

www.tkburk.com
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  #174  
Old 12-06-2008, 08:00 PM
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ILG ILG is offline
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Re: Will I.B. retract if 2 billion don't die soon?

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Originally Posted by Esther View Post
Never met anyone on the edge of hysterics because of Bro. Baxter's ministry???
It was a figure of speech. The point is, he needs sensational headlines to keep people buying his magazine. I'm not saying anything about his sincerity, just that he does need sensational headlines.
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  #175  
Old 12-06-2008, 09:09 PM
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Re: Will I.B. retract if 2 billion don't die soon?

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Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea View Post
Over the weekend while in Arkansas/Mississippi... I stayed in the room of a young teen who kindly gave up his room to this old man ...

On his night stand was a Sept/Oct. 2007 issue of Irvin Baxter's Endtime Prophecy magazine that screamed "2 Billion People will Die in 12 Months?"

I know that this claim has been discussed here before ... and I was partially amused at his 4 page attempt to prove that 1/3 of the world would be obliterated ... and that it would have to happen in the last year of the Bush Presidency ... and that we are in the midst of WWIII .... and that could be engaging in the Euphrates River War by now ...

What I want to know ... is if this doesn't happen ... will he retract his claims to his readership come this fall?

When did the Church allow speculative prophetic punditry to become a big business?

I glance through the magazine and it's all about selling books and dvds ... Why so much interest in this anyway?

How is this any different from prosperity preaching?

Is it too much to keep our preachers accountable for these types of claims?
The only retraction in the OT was the retracting of the sling shot when the lying prophets were stoned....
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  #176  
Old 12-06-2008, 09:10 PM
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Neck Neck is offline
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Re: Will I.B. retract if 2 billion don't die soon?

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Originally Posted by ILG View Post
It was a figure of speech. The point is, he needs sensational headlines to keep people buying his magazine. I'm not saying anything about his sincerity, just that he does need sensational headlines.
I'll say it he is never right.

He might want to start talking about things that might happen 50 years from now and not next week!
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