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Old 02-06-2012, 12:16 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Originally Posted by Titus2woman

I am a very simple person. The answers you give seem very convoluted. I believe that Paul himself as a Jew honored the Sabbath as did all the early Christian church until the time of Constantine. As Baptists we were not only told that we should judge no man (and we don't) we were told that it was divinely ordained that the day or rest and worship was moved to Sunday. As a matter of fact for decades (until the 1980's) we were asked to vote to maintain 'Blue Laws' that forbid anyone to shop or restaurants to open on Sunday because it was the 'Christian Sabbath'. Of course once those laws failed there was no church that continued to ask members to avoid shopping or eating out which are now the very things that 90% of people who leave church are going to do on the way home.

Below is an example of how it was explained... your explanation makes my baloney-meter go off at the same frequency that this one did. It's a commandment, period. If I take a law book and transcribe it to a floppy disk that does not change the law so the law being written on our hearts verses on tablets of stone does not do away with it still being the law and not judging someone else for not keeping the law also does not make it any less the law. Not judging is repeated over and over in the bible and is a common theme and the fact that you heap judgement on yourself for judging another persons walk with God... But most of us still keep those laws anyway to the best of our ability and sadly most everybody still judges others even when they know they shouldn't. Most here if they saw someone from church swigging down a few beers at the local restaurant would judge them although judging not for meat or drink is included in this scriptures you gave as an example. I think that Paul meant that worshiping other days or every day was just fine.. But the Sabbath was and is the Sabbath and if it was not explicitly changed in the new testament then it was not changed anymore than any other commandment. "For whosoever shall keep the whole law and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." James 2:10

Here is the old Baptist explanation: (this guy obviously did not own a spell checker, lol!)

We believe that the change in day for the sabbath to Sunday was Divinely Authorized. When Jesus declared that “the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath,” He wanted them to understand that He had the power to change the day on which the holy rest should be obversed and the way it which it should be observed. Scriptures clearly indicate that the Sabbath was celebrated on different days.
1. Orginally, as seen in Genesis 2:3, the Sabbath was to be observed after the six days of work by God. Here, in the institution of the Sabbath, it is distinclty declared to be a day of Holy rest after 6 days of labor, and it was to be a memorial of creation.
2. The next mention of the Sabbath is in connection with the gving of the manna (Ex 16:14-31). Here the manna is stated to have fallen for 6 days, that is from the 16th to the 21st day of the second month; and that the day following, or the twenty-second, was the frirst 7th day Sabbath celebrated in the Wilderness of Sin. “See for the Lord has given you the sabbath, so He has given you on the 6th day the bread of life for 2 days. So the people rested on the 7th day.” The Sabbath as a holy rest was re-established at this time. There is controversy over what day was actually observed. If the 22 day was a Sabbath day, then the 15th should have been also, but it was not because they marched that day. Dr. W. H. Rogers holds that “the only change of the Sabbath by God's authority is for the Jeews between the giving of the manna and the resurrrection of Christ. The first day of the week, but always the 7th after 6 working days was the day of the holy rest from Adam to Moses. The Sabbatism was separated from idolatry by changing it from Sunday to Saturday among the chosen people ‘throughout their generations,' 1500 years (Ex 31:13-14; Ezek. 20:12). At Christ's resurrrection expired by statue limitation this peculiarity of excpetional change, leaving the divine rule for all mankind, requiring 1st day Sabbath keeping, as had been the case for the 1st 2500 years of human history.”
3. The Christian Sabbath or “Lord's Day” has been tradition since apostolic times. It came early to be known as the “Lord's Day” to distinguish it from the Jewish Sabbath. That this change was divienly authorized is show (1) by the example of Jesus, (2) by the authority of the apostles, (3) by the practices of the early church, and (4) by the testimony of the early apostolic fathers.
1. Jesus placed approval upon the 1st day of the week, by meeting with His disciples on this day. The resurrection took place on the morning of the 1st day of the week. The four accounts of the gosples agree that the Saviour arose early “the first day of the week.” His first meeting with the body of His diciples was on the evening of the resurrection day (John 20:19); and the second on the eveing of the 8th day, which would of course, be the foolowing first day of the next week. There were 3 more “first days” before the ascension, but it is not said whetehr Jesus met with His disciples on any or all of them. However, there were 3 more appearances: to the 500, to James, and to the apostles (1 Cor.15:1-4).
2. The Apolstles authorized the change, doubtless due to the unrecorded instrutions of Jesus during the 40 days (Acts 1:2). Thwenty five years later St. Paul worshiped, shared communion, and preached at Troas on Sunday (1 Cor 16:1-2). This clearly indicates that the apostle sanctioned the 1st day as the Christian Sabbath.
3. The practices of the early churches are further proof of wirship on Sunday. This is shown by the passages just cited, and also by St. John's reference to the Sabbath as the “Lord's day” (Rev 1:10). Since he uses the prhase without any refrecne to the first day, it is eveindece that when the Apocalypse was written, the 1st day was gnerally know as the “Lord's Day” in contradiction to the Jewish 7th day.
4. Since some of the early apostolic fathers were associated with the apostles, their writings from the historical standpoint, furnish conclusive eveicnec as to the current thgouht of that time. For example, Ignatius, plycarp, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Clement of Alexandria, Theodoret, Eusebius, Origen, the Didache or Teaches of the Twelve all mention the sabbath observence being on the Lord's Day.

Putting all of this aside, I believe that God is more worried about the heart of the worshipper than the day of the worship. At my church, we worship on Sunday , Saturday, and Wednesday. Since God “lives in the praises of His people,” does it really matter what day we observe the Sabbath. If we become to legalistic and think that only Sunday or any day of the week is the only day to observe the Sabbath, then we are no better than the Pharasees who condemned Jesus for working on the Sabbath.
Amen! My church has Saturday and Sunday services as well. Midweek gatherings are in house churches throughout the week.
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Old 02-06-2012, 12:17 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay
These are the verses that I cite for why I am not especially concerned with keeping the Sabbath as such. I have friend who keeps Sunday very strictly as the day of rest. We have agreed that neither of us shall despise the other for our own position.

Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
Paul is talking about cultural observances, not the Sabbath.
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Old 02-06-2012, 01:04 AM
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Re: Rejoicing In the Sabbath:

The Sabbath was a Jewish cultural observance mandated by God. Paul never instructs the Gentiles into the exactitude that was required of the Jewish people. That is why he mentions it the way that he does in any number of places. The reason that he continued to follow the Jewish tradition was because he was Jewish.
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Old 02-06-2012, 01:44 AM
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Re: Rejoicing In the Sabbath:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay View Post
The Sabbath was a Jewish cultural observance mandated by God. Paul never instructs the Gentiles into the exactitude that was required of the Jewish people. That is why he mentions it the way that he does in any number of places. The reason that he continued to follow the Jewish tradition was because he was Jewish.
Paul also did jewish vows even had tim cricumcised. Why? To win them. Same thing with sabbath.
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Old 02-06-2012, 01:59 AM
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Re: Rejoicing In the Sabbath:

Only in part. Paul was actually content with his heritage, and even referenced in the epistles to the Gentiles, especially when he tells them that they are not under any portion of the law.

I do agree that men ought to have a day of rest, but even Jesus said that the Sabbath was ordained for man and not the other way around. Thus I do not view that the Sabbath according to Scripture was ever meant to remain as a permanent ordinance especially for the Gentile church. This is especially true concerning the strict adherence that many who believe this place upon it.
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Old 02-06-2012, 07:23 AM
Titus2woman Titus2woman is offline


 
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Re: Rejoicing In the Sabbath:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay View Post
Only in part. Paul was actually content with his heritage, and even referenced in the epistles to the Gentiles, especially when he tells them that they are not under any portion of the law.

I do agree that men ought to have a day of rest, but even Jesus said that the Sabbath was ordained for man and not the other way around. Thus I do not view that the Sabbath according to Scripture was ever meant to remain as a permanent ordinance especially for the Gentile church. This is especially true concerning the strict adherence that many who believe this place upon it.
The typical Sunday-worshiping argument. "We are not under any portion of the law." Yet we still do not kill, steal. covet.. oh wait... we do covet, don't we??? Perhaps you are correct!

I do not read that the Sabbath was ever changed for Christians who were first Jews or that a 'second Sabbath' was made for Gentile converts who continued to worship on the Sabbath for a few centuries. I do read that Sunday worship was preferred by Constantine who was a Sun god worshiper. He, in all likelihood, was never even really converted as evidenced by his refusal for baptism until his death bed. He was simply a politician that saw it as a good career move to claim Christianity as his religion to smooth his path with what was becoming the majority. Many do this today also so it should be a concept we understand.

There are many other facts that OPs recognize from this era if one reads D. Bernard's History Of The Christian Church correctly. Unfortunately when they took back those truths about Jesus name baptism and God's Oneness they did not go far enough and take back the Sabbath, much to their detriment. Like most mistakes, once made, it is easier to try to justify than to correct them and admit you were wrong. A few brave churches are doing just that but unraveling tradition can be a mighty hard thing and I am sympathetic to those who find it too big a job.

I see over and over that Christians are told that they are allowed many liberties, Many places that the Bible, when it appears to contradict, is simply saying let common sense rule in a situation and don't judge your brother when he is doing the best he can with what he has. I love that, it bring peace to me when others don't see it my way.

I believe that where there is a choice we should try to honor God in the ways that he has ordained and that the bible was given us so that we could know what those ways are. Trying to erase the old testaments moral laws and commandments is foolish. We were given the Holy Spirit in order to be able to find strength to keep those moral laws and when not able mercy is extended through repentance. I do not hear anyone trying to argue that we should attempt to keep ceremonial laws, although Oneness Pentecostalism does attempt to keep some of them, I certainly am not.

You are right the Sabbath is a gift from God to man. You do not have to take it. My favorite comparison is to the Holy Spirit which is also a gift from God. You can refuse it, many do, but is it to your benefit? When God gives gifts I want to be the first one in line with my hand out
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Old 02-06-2012, 06:41 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay
The Sabbath was a Jewish cultural observance mandated by God. Paul never instructs the Gentiles into the exactitude that was required of the Jewish people. That is why he mentions it the way that he does in any number of places. The reason that he continued to follow the Jewish tradition was because he was Jewish.
So the adultery clause was a Jewish cultural observance? Remember, the tabernacle, including the ark was modeled after pre-existent Heavenly realities. Even Heaven has an ark (Revelation 11:19). In it can be found the Ten Commandments. What does Revelation 14:12 say?

Revelation 14:12 ESV
Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

Jesus said,

Matthew 5:19 ESV
Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Why are you at war with the Ten Commandments?
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Old 02-06-2012, 06:52 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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If one studies this issue, they will realize that early Jews and Christians had no concept of Sunday as a day of worship. It wasn't until the Romanization of the church began did any controversy erupt. The Catholic church claimed authority to abolish the Sabbath and institute Sunday Mass. Their own theologians testify to this as a victory of the Catholic church's authority. They also admit that Protestants acknowledge their authority by Sunday worship because NOTHING in Scripture declares Sunday as a day of worship nor the abolishing of Sabbath observance.
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Old 02-06-2012, 06:58 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

We do need time off. Most employers at least IN THEORY give two days off. As far as a DAY of worship? That I dont get. I worship Yeshua every day. We are to ABIDE IN CHRIST?

As far as not being hard to do I would say IF we were to COMMANDED to keep it that it would be THE HARDEST.

Since 1978 I have not had a job where I could chose to work or not work weekends. They would never hire people who told them they would not work weekends. Where I work now we work rotating days off. I get one weekend off per month.

By the way some in this thread have a very different version of the Sabbath. Friends the Sabbath Yeshua kept was SATURDAY. The seventh day of the week. Scripture knows NOTHING about the Sabbath being on Sunday.

If in fact we were under the Sabbath/Saturday law one would go to Hell if he did not obey. Most hard core Law Keepers teach this. The SDA says to go to Church on Sunday is the mark of the beast.
Many have their lives for Jesus. And you think finding a job where you have Saturdays off is too hard???

The Jews in exile were often challenged to keep God's commandments. God knows the intent of our hearts. If you must work, take time to rest and worship after work on the Sabbath.
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Old 02-06-2012, 07:30 AM
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Re: Rejoicing In the Sabbath:

If we are going to keep one part of the law then we must keep all the law. BTW where do folkss get to divide the law into moral, ceremonial, etc...... Jesus and apostles only refered to the law.
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