Prominent Memphis Area Pastor Resigns

[Peacemaker]

CC1 that's the meat of where we disagree. Viewing something you disagree with as a closed culture is an opinion that anyone believing in a similar fashion will hold. I contest the view that because we have views that are different from yours does not make us a closed culture. Clearly even in a supposedly open culture like Swaggarts AG church, there were many blind loyalists. Having a belief in our type of standards does not mean that we are a closed culture or more likely to be blindly loyal. Those are simply unrelated. What SHOULD be the case is that neither of us or "our groups" would be willing to follow failed leadership, because of a deep desire for righteousness in our spirits.

[CC1]

Originally Posted by Peacemaker

CC1 that's the meat of where we disagree. Viewing something you disagree with as a closed culture is an opinion that anyone believing in a similar fashion will hold. I contest the view that because we have views that are different from yours does not make us a closed culture. Clearly even in a supposedly open culture like Swaggarts AG church, there were many blind loyalists. Having a belief in our type of standards does not mean that we are a closed culture or more likely to be blindly loyal. Those are simply unrelated. What SHOULD be the case is that neither of us or "our groups" would be willing to follow failed leadership, because of a deep desire for righteousness in our spirits.

I find it hard to believe that anybody would argue that old time Pentecost / UPC is not a closed religious culture. The emphasis is on their dinstinctives both doctrinal and dress code. They do not consider those who believe differently to be Christian brothers or sisters and most do not even think they can learn anything from reading a book or hearing a sermon from someone outside of their specific belief system. If that is not a closed culture I don't know what is.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by CC1

I find it hard to believe that anybody would argue that old time Pentecost / UPC is not a closed religious culture. The emphasis is on their dinstinctives both doctrinal and dress code. They do not consider those who believe differently to be Christian brothers or sisters and most do not even think they can learn anything from reading a book or hearing a sermon from someone outside of their specific belief system. If that is not a closed culture I don't know what is.

At one time all of this may have been true. But I think there has been drastic improvement in this area. I'd say that at least 51% now gleen from non-apostolic Christian sources. That number probably is higher.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by CC1

I find it hard to believe that anybody would argue that old time Pentecost / UPC is not a closed religious culture. The emphasis is on their dinstinctives both doctrinal and dress code. They do not consider those who believe differently to be Christian brothers or sisters and most do not even think they can learn anything from reading a book or hearing a sermon from someone outside of their specific belief system. If that is not a closed culture I don't know what is.

I agree that it is a closed culture, but I always found it odd that PPH sold books written by trinitarians....

[Sam]

Originally Posted by ILG

I agree that it is a closed culture, but I always found it odd that PPH sold books written by trinitarians....

and our Apostolic/Pentecostal ministers preach sermons they receive from books written by trinitarians,

and we read from a KJV Bible translated by trinitarians for use in the Anglican Church,

and we sing songs and choruses written by trinitarians,

[The Lemon]

Hmmmmmm.....I have no problem voicing my opinions on issues that I disagree with concerning church culture or "house rules", but that beiong said - I do believe you can learn from anyone...even a heathen...but in my experience, the depth of worship and preaching, and prayer in an Apostolic Church is second to none.

Mostly I attribute this to the freedom of the Holy Ghost, and the emphasis on praying in the spirit, as well as worshiping in the spirit. I don't, however, believe it is because of certain distinctives, although I do believe that a heart and life that is consecrated to God is powerful.

Anyway..

[H Gang]

Originally Posted by The Lemon

but in my experience, the depth of worship and preaching, and prayer in an Apostolic Church is second to none.

Mostly I attribute this to the freedom of the Holy Ghost, and the emphasis on praying in the spirit, as well as worshiping in the spirit. I don't, however, believe it is because of certain distinctives, although I do believe that a heart and life that is consecrated to God is powerful.

It's this very attitude that so many in the movement are blind to. You probably don't realize what an elitist attitude your statement betrays.

"Second to none"? Really? Compared to what? Are we ranking churches like college football teams trying to determine who's number one? "Freedom of the Holy Ghost"? What's that? You mean the freedom to get crazy, fall out, scream, run, roll on the floor, blurt out in tongues, etc? Was I Corinthians 14 written for nothing? Does the NT offer any instruction and guidance for the use of the gifts of the Spirit for nothing?

"Emphasis on praying in the Spirit"---what does that mean? Does the Bible place an emphasis on praying in the Spirit? Is that what we see consistently throughout the NT? Or maybe an emphasis on faith and preaching the Gospel?

"A life consecrated to God"---another arrogant attitude here. In other words, traditional standards of lifestyle means you are more consecrated than other so-called Christians and power is manifested in your life and in your churches b/c God deems y'all special b/c of your personal sacrifices to be holy.

It's the same old HMH doctrine, we have things happen in our churches that happen nowhere else, because we are better than those other churches, we are deeper spiritually, we have a unique exclusive relationship with God.

It's phony. It's a lie. God is with anyone who is hungry for Him. God is leading and guiding people all over the world with diversities of doctrines and teachings on a lot of fronts. But He will respond to faith period. He will respond to genuine worship whether exuberant or reverent. There are deeply spiritual Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, Charismatics, Evangelicals, Lutherans, etc.

I don't understand the need to always place my church above everyone else's or place my experience above everyone else's. I don't know how this attitude crept into the Apostolic movement. From what I read and know of the elders and their history, they were humble men and women, they loved God and they simply wanted to see folks get saved. But now it's "we've got the best preachers, the best music, the best worship, the best doctrine, the best _____________." Its this very haughtiness that leads to the kind of fall we see in Memphis. It's sickening. Get over yourself.

If you love Jesus, you believe in Him and His Word, and you're covered by His blood, you're my brother in Christ. I can agree to disagree over peripheral issues and not belittle you as an inferior.

[returnman]

Originally Posted by H Gang

It's this very attitude that so many in the movement are blind to. You probably don't realize what an elitist attitude your statement betrays.

"Second to none"? Really? Compared to what? Are we ranking churches like college football teams trying to determine who's number one? "Freedom of the Holy Ghost"? What's that? You mean the freedom to get crazy, fall out, scream, run, roll on the floor, blurt out in tongues, etc? Was I Corinthians 14 written for nothing? Does the NT offer any instruction and guidance for the use of the gifts of the Spirit for nothing?

"Emphasis on praying in the Spirit"---what does that mean? Does the Bible place an emphasis on praying in the Spirit? Is that what we see consistently throughout the NT? Or maybe an emphasis on faith and preaching the Gospel?

"A life consecrated to God"---another arrogant attitude here. In other words, traditional standards of lifestyle means you are more consecrated than other so-called Christians and power is manifested in your life and in your churches b/c God deems y'all special b/c of your personal sacrifices to be holy.

It's the same old HMH doctrine, we have things happen in our churches that happen nowhere else, because we are better than those other churches, we are deeper spiritually, we have a unique exclusive relationship with God.

It's phony. It's a lie. God is with anyone who is hungry for Him. God is leading and guiding people all over the world with diversities of doctrines and teachings on a lot of fronts. But He will respond to faith period. He will respond to genuine worship whether exuberant or reverent. There are deeply spiritual Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, Charismatics, Evangelicals, Lutherans, etc.

I don't understand the need to always place my church above everyone else's or place my experience above everyone else's. I don't know how this attitude crept into the Apostolic movement. From what I read and know of the elders and their history, they were humble men and women, they loved God and they simply wanted to see folks get saved. But now it's "we've got the best preachers, the best music, the best worship, the best doctrine, the best _____________." Its this very haughtiness that leads to the kind of fall we see in Memphis. It's sickening. Get over yourself.

If you love Jesus, you believe in Him and His Word, and you're covered by His blood, you're my brother in Christ. I can agree to disagree over peripheral issues and not belittle you as an inferior.

you hit some key points...OUCH!

[Tlswift2009]

Originally Posted by H Gang

It's this very attitude that so many in the movement are blind to. You probably don't realize what an elitist attitude your statement betrays.

"Second to none"? Really? Compared to what? Are we ranking churches like college football teams trying to determine who's number one? "Freedom of the Holy Ghost"? What's that? You mean the freedom to get crazy, fall out, scream, run, roll on the floor, blurt out in tongues, etc? Was I Corinthians 14 written for nothing? Does the NT offer any instruction and guidance for the use of the gifts of the Spirit for nothing?

"Emphasis on praying in the Spirit"---what does that mean? Does the Bible place an emphasis on praying in the Spirit? Is that what we see consistently throughout the NT? Or maybe an emphasis on faith and preaching the Gospel?

"A life consecrated to God"---another arrogant attitude here. In other words, traditional standards of lifestyle means you are more consecrated than other so-called Christians and power is manifested in your life and in your churches b/c God deems y'all special b/c of your personal sacrifices to be holy.

It's the same old HMH doctrine, we have things happen in our churches that happen nowhere else, because we are better than those other churches, we are deeper spiritually, we have a unique exclusive relationship with God.

It's phony. It's a lie. God is with anyone who is hungry for Him. God is leading and guiding people all over the world with diversities of doctrines and teachings on a lot of fronts. But He will respond to faith period. He will respond to genuine worship whether exuberant or reverent. There are deeply spiritual Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, Charismatics, Evangelicals, Lutherans, etc.

I don't understand the need to always place my church above everyone else's or place my experience above everyone else's. I don't know how this attitude crept into the Apostolic movement. From what I read and know of the elders and their history, they were humble men and women, they loved God and they simply wanted to see folks get saved. But now it's "we've got the best preachers, the best music, the best worship, the best doctrine, the best _____________." Its this very haughtiness that leads to the kind of fall we see in Memphis. It's sickening. Get over yourself.

If you love Jesus, you believe in Him and His Word, and you're covered by His blood, you're my brother in Christ. I can agree to disagree over peripheral issues and not belittle you as an inferior.

Genuine worship, faith and OBEDIENCE will lead a person into God's genuine plan of SALVATION for all of mankind....

[Tlswift2009]

Originally Posted by The Lemon

Hmmmmmm.....I have no problem voicing my opinions on issues that I disagree with concerning church culture or "house rules", but that beiong said - I do believe you can learn from anyone...even a heathen...but in my experience, the depth of worship and preaching, and prayer in an Apostolic Church is second to none.

Mostly I attribute this to the freedom of the Holy Ghost, and the emphasis on praying in the spirit, as well as worshiping in the spirit. I don't, however, believe it is because of certain distinctives, although I do believe that a heart and life that is consecrated to God is powerful.

Anyway..

A Hearty Amen!!!!