Essential Goal of Christianity???

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Transformation seems to be a work in progress, a growing, a learning process, until we become more and more, from faith to faith, from glory to glory more like Christ.

Well, yes, growth is part of it all. However, I like yanking the resident Democrat humanist's chains, thus my assault on his use of the term 'evolution'.



BTW, about that from 'glory to glory' thing -

Does the context not support the idea that the 'from glory' = old covenant and 'to glory' = new covenant?

2Cr 3:7
¶
But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

2Cr 3:8
How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

2Cr 3:9
For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

2Cr 3:10
For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

2Cr 3:11
For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

2Cr 3:12
Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

2Cr 3:13
And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

2Cr 3:14
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

2Cr 3:15
But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

2Cr 3:16
Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

2Cr 3:17
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

2Cr 3:18
But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

In other words, 'from glory to glory' is a reference to the transformation from old covenant to new covenant.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Well, yes, growth is part of it all. However, I like yanking the resident Democrat humanist's chains, thus my assault on his use of the term 'evolution'.



BTW, about that from 'glory to glory' thing -

Does the context not support the idea that the 'from glory' = old covenant and 'to glory' = new covenant?

2Cr 3:7
¶
But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

2Cr 3:8
How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

2Cr 3:9
For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

2Cr 3:10
For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

2Cr 3:11
For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

2Cr 3:12
Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

2Cr 3:13
And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

2Cr 3:14
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

2Cr 3:15
But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

2Cr 3:16
Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

2Cr 3:17
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

2Cr 3:18
But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

In other words, 'from glory to glory' is a reference to the transformation from old covenant to new covenant.

but in verse 18 "we all...are changed into the same image from glory to glory...by the Spirit of the Lord. So we are not changed immediately to the utmost glory (or to be completely like the Lord) but from glory to glory which implies a process or a growing as we behold the Lord and by the Spirit of the Lord.

How would you interpret "glory to glory" in verse 18 by incorporating the old and new covenants?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

but in verse 18 "we all...are changed into the same image from glory to glory...by the Spirit of the Lord. So we are not changed immediately to the utmost glory (or to be completely like the Lord) but from glory to glory which implies a process or a growing as we behold the Lord and by the Spirit of the Lord.

How would you interpret "glory to glory" in verse 18 by incorporating the old and new covenants?

The entire context of the whole passage, about 'seeing the face' and about 'glory', is a contrast between the old covenant and the new covenant. Therefore, whatever Paul means in v 18, he is talking about a dichotomy between the old covenant and the new. He points out the old covenant readers, not having the Spirit, have a veil over their hearts (like Moses had a veil over his face, so the glory could not be seen). But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is done away with, and thus we 'behold his face' (the Lord's face). And thus, we are changed into the same image - we are made like to him, from glory to glory.

A quick google search reveals I am not alone in seeing it this way -

Yet, Paul says, that that veil should be taken away, 2 Corinthians 3:16-18. It was the intention of God that it should be removed. When that people should turn again to the Lord, it should be taken away, 2 Corinthians 3:16. It was done where the Spirit of the Lord was, 2 Corinthians 3:17. It was done in fact in regard to all true Christians, 2 Corinthians 3:18. They were permitted to behold the glory of the Lord as in a glass, and they were changed into the same image. The same subject is continued in 2 Corinthians 4, where Paul illustrates the effect of this clear revelation of the gospel as compared with the institutions of Moses, on the Christian ministry. - Barnes' Notes

Granted, Barnes also sees a 'growth' process in this, when he says the following:

From glory to glory - From one degree of glory to another. “The more we behold this brilliant and glorious light, the more do we reflect back its rays; that is, the more we contemplate the great truths of the Christian religion, the more do our minds become imbued with its spirit” - Bloomfield. This is said in contradistinction probably to Moses. The splendor on his face gradually died away. But not so with the light reflected from the gospel. It becomes deeper and brighter constantly. This sentinient is parallel to that expressed by the psalmist; “They go from strength to strength” Psalm 84:7; that is, they go from one degree of strength to another, or one degree of holiness to another, until they come to the full vision of God himself in heaven. The idea in the phrase before us is; that there is a continual increase of moral purity and holiness under the gospel until it results in the perfect glory of heaven. The “doctrine” is, that Christians advance in piety; and that this is done by the contemplation of the glory of God as it is revealed in the gospel.

But the main concept Paul is getting across is the distinction between the veiled glory of God revealed to the old covenant believer and the unveiled glory of God revealed to the new covenant believer.

Let me say it again so we're clear on this - I am not denying growth. The bible is clear that we are expected to grow in our knowledge of the Lord.

But I do think Paul's reference to 'from glory to glory' has more to do with the difference between the old and new covenants than with personal growth as a Christian. To be changed, 'from glory to glory' implies leaving the first behind for the second, rather than simply increasing the glory one is exposed to.

jmo.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Esaias

But I do think Paul's reference to 'from glory to glory' has more to do with the difference between the old and new covenants than with personal growth as a Christian. To be changed, 'from glory to glory' implies leaving the first behind for the second, rather than simply increasing the glory one is exposed to.

jmo.

I appreciate what you wrote and the quotes from Barnes. I think Paul said all that about the old covenant and the new covenant to show the difference in the ministration of the Spirit under the new covenant...how much more glorious it is. He was making a point by comparison. But the glorious end of the new covenant is to become like Christ, to have our character formed to be like him. It is a process that we all go through which starts with one degree of glory and goes onto another degree of glory in imitating Christ. Verse 18 expresses the transformation that occurs when someone enters the new covenant...we no longer have veiled minds, we no longer have hard hearts but we see the true glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ and we are changed in a growing process of becoming more and more like Him.

I see the context and the comparisons of old and new covenants but I don't believe that is what is being alluded to when Paul speaks of "glory to glory" in vs 18. jmo