My Talk With God:

[kclee4jc]

Because they received not the love of the truth...

[jediwill83]

Im going to re read this over and over....look im no theological scholar...im not even a good christian most of the time...im laying here in my bunk at work and when I started reading this there was a witness I felt in my spirit...tears began to well up even now as im typing this...im not going to pick this apart and micro examine every tense and meaning...im going to accept this in the spirit it was given...if it makes me a hell bound herectic so be it...trust me when I say ive done worse...all I know is that it felt like it was straight to me.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

It may be so, but then again, the argument against man-made lists doesn't always hold water, since many of these "lists" are found in Scripture. It's usually the application of the list, or how binding the items are that are found in the list, that is at issue.

I was puzzled by that too when I first received this message. And you’re right, many lists are found in Scripture. However, when I tested the theory of this message, I discovered that people often pick and choose what lists they want to claim will please God. Sometimes they don’t even pick the entire list. For example, the Ten Commandments. Some will pick the Ten Commandments and then claim that the Fourth Commandment (The Sabbath) isn’t binding. Some will pick the Ten Commandments and say that the Fourth Commandment is binding. Some then add another list of how to honor the Sabbath from the Law of Moses. Some will add elements from the Law of Moses, but not the entire list of obligatory observances concerning the Sabbath. Then, finally, some don’t even refer to the Law of Moses at all, they merely set the Sabbath aside as a day of worship and “rest”. Notice… each list is “biblical”. Now each believer views violations of their specific list to be “sin”. And so they squabble, dis-fellowship, pronounce anathemas against one another etc. While each list is strictly based on a “biblical” interpretation, each list is but a “human” interpretation. Notice also, each person divorced the entire premise behind the elements of their list, God’s desire for Israel and His covenant with them. Essentially, they are digging through an ancient national constitution established by God for an ancient nation that doesn’t exist anymore and picking and choosing which laws will please God and get them to Heaven. By implication… in doing so, they are also choosing laws by which they will judge others. Each is guilty of the same error. A self-derived list by which they measure themselves and judge others. The end result… division and strife. We see this theological “war” between Covenantal Evangelicals, Seventh Day believers, and various sects of Messianic Christians. While the beat their chests and moralize with their lists… they are dividing the body over human opinions about divine truth… not divine truth itself. This is a grave sin in God’s eyes. It’s teaching for doctrines… the commandments of men; even though the lists are pulled from the Bible.

There are some real nutters out there, to be sure. But there are also some very sincere, God-fearing people who strive and contend for the faith as they understand it. But this automatically leads to division against those who understand the faith differently. We are but flesh, right?

Amen. But what bothers me is the reasoning behind saying, “we are but flesh”. While this is true… this can become an excuse for clinging to one’s list (one’s “preferred” religion). It also excuses the division, strife, malice, etc. that can come from this “list-making”. Sadly, as history will testify, these “lists” have even led to war and bloodshed. Much of history is written in the blood of those who didn’t fit into someone’s religious “list”. That’s how evil these things can become. It’s easy to say that we are but flesh. However, is this really an adequate excuse? If we wanted to, couldn’t we surrender our “lists” for a greater understanding. An understanding that Jesus and the Apostle Paul so adequately explained? The understanding that God desires that we do one thing: Love? That we love Him… and show our love for Him by loving others as ourselves? That in all we do we should judge it as to if it is “loving” towards God and others? How does it serve me? Is it “expedient” and add to me growing into the likeness of Jesus Himself? Is that really too hard for those of us who are “but flesh”? It seems as though this would be far easier than maintaining a list, evaluating it constantly, measuring self and others by it, and then adding or taking away from it as another viable “interpretation” presents itself.

I’ve learned that a healthy and elevated spirituality is not judged on its complexity. It’s judge on its simplicity.

Even Jesus said He came not to bring peace, but a sword. Members of one's own family can become enemies over the doctrine of Christ.

I know. Sadly, nearly every “list-maker” has counted me an enemy… or at least suspect. It doesn’t matter if the list is conservative, liberal, evangelical, protestant, Catholic, Pentecostal, or Charismatic… everyone that I’ve discussed this with who values their “list” has either turned on me or holds me at arm’s reach. And my only proposition is that we strive to be filled with love; love for God shown by a love for others. That God is love… and through becoming a vessel through which the love of God flows… we truly become “holy”… like Him. Since God isn’t a Methodist… it stands to reason that to live in a manner that conforms us into the modes and fashions of the old Methodist holiness movement isn’t going to cut it. We’d be conformed into their image… not the image of Christ. Not the image of God. The God who is love. This message has me essentially standing alone and often times under siege by those who once called me “brother”. And interestingly enough… men who strongly disagree about their lists and would condemn one another to Hell fire have united to oppose me at times. Why? Could it be because that while they disagree on their “lists”… they agree on one thing… “we must have lists”? Do their “lists” give them a niche? Does it allow them to maintain some level of control or measure of honor among those whom they’ve convinced to embrace said “list”? I’m not sure. All I know is that for the most part… I stand alone when it comes to my immediate friends and family on this one.

Today, while reading up on an unrelated topic, I came upon a verse that seems to weigh in on this thread. I share it now for consideration:

1 Timothy 6:3-5,



We are even supposed to withdraw ourselves from brethren, people of the faith, if they do not consent to wholesome words, and etc.

To me, this goes back to the heart of Aquila's opening post. How can we obey verses like this without drawing a line in the sand? How can we know from whom we must withdraw, if we don't at first create an awareness and understanding of what Paul meant here in 1 Timothy 6?

I’ve come to realize that it’s rather simple. If one’s words are not “loving”… they are not wholesome. If one’s actions are not “loving” they are not holy. If one’s words and actions cater to the needs of self and the desires of the flesh, they are not “loving” others, God, or even themselves properly. Paul said it best when he wrote:

Romans 13:8-10 (ESV)
8 Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” AND ANY OTHER COMMANDMENT, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

A Christlike love fulfills the law in all things. Every commandment ever given is summed up in this one action… love.

This is God-ordained dis-unity. The Lord, while wanting for us all to become one with Him, nonetheless doesn't always want us to become one with each other if such a oneness compromises us.

I understand what you’re saying. And I agree. However I’ve come to see it differently. God doesn’t want us to become one with each other if such oneness compromises… HIM. Because He desires to be manifest in us. He desires to flow through us. He desires to be the vine… and us to be His branches. That which compromises HIM is the issue. Not what compromises “us” (normally meaning those of us who agree to the same "list"). Because my version of being compromised may not be the same as your version of being compromised. But if the issue is compromising Him and His body… now we have something substantive. God is love. And so if something compromises that love… it must be dealt with. It must be counseled, disciplined, or cut off. Sadly, I’ve seen folks cut off over things like a wedding band. I’ve see people cut off and abandoned spiritually over a laps in moral judgment without counsel or serious efforts to restore. I’ve seen people cut off because of an internal issue they struggle with. I’ve seen this used, not as a way to maintain the bonds of love, but rather to deny mercy and grace to those who will not perfectly abide by, or have struggles with, the “list”. We must separate ourselves from anyone who is living in a manner that uses another and doesn’t love. But we do this in the hopes that in being severed from a body filled with Christlike love… they will begin to understand what they are missing and what they need. They need Christ. They need the body through which His love flows.

Show me any individual with a rebellious propensity to sin… and I’ll show you how that person is failing to love God, others, and often even themselves.

[votivesoul]

Thanks for the very thorough and clarifying response, Aquila. I am glad for the dialogue.

I read everything, but some things, more than others, stood out. These I wish to address:

Originally Posted by Aquila

...While each list is strictly based on a “biblical” interpretation, each list is but a “human” interpretation.

This is really my issue. If you had written that the qualm the Lord has with us was our interpretation of the lists found in Scripture, I don't think I would have disagreed at all. The presentation, from my pov, seemed to be suggesting that the Lord was against humans trying their very best to understand "what doth the Lord require of thee?".

There is no doubt that Christ was and is against teaching for the commandments of God the doctrines of men.

Amen. But what bothers me is the reasoning behind saying, “we are but flesh”...

I use this phrase in its Biblical context: Psalm 78:38-39,

38. But he, being full of compassion, forgave their iniquity, and destroyed them not: yea, many a time turned he his anger away, and did not stir up all his wrath.
39. For he remembered that they were but flesh; a wind that passeth away, and cometh not again.

God knows we are but a wind that passes away. He even said of us "...the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps" (Jeremiah 10:23).

As a species, rescued from sin, or still dead therein, we really have no idea, most of the time, what we're doing, even if we boast differently.

Hence why the Lord is "very pitiful, and of tender mercy" (James 5:11).

So, not an excuse, but rather mere acknowledgement of just how helpless and child-like we all are. Utterly dependent of God for everything!

The understanding that God desires that we do one thing: Love? That we love Him… and show our love for Him by loving others as ourselves?

If we love Him we keep His commandments, right?

The corollary being that those who do not keep the Lord's commandments prove that they do not love Him as they say. Again we are drawn back to lists. What are the commandments of the Lord Jesus? How do we keep them properly? What if we don't agree? Can we be in sincere disagreement with one another without being in trouble with the Savior?

I’ve come to realize that it’s rather simple. If one’s words are not “loving”… they are not wholesome. If one’s actions are not “loving” they are not holy.

A Christlike love fulfills the law in all things. Every commandment ever given is summed up in this one action… love.

Paul asked the Galatians, "Am I now become your enemy because I tell you the truth"?

He called them foolish, said they were bewitched, said they had fallen from grace, and even desired that the Judaizers who had corrupted them would be castrated.

Are these words "loving" or "wholesome"?

Sometimes, the greatest words of love hurt us the most. We need censure, we need reproof and rebuke, we need verbal chastisement, we need to be upbraided.

I understand what you’re saying. And I agree. However I’ve come to see it differently. God doesn’t want us to become one with each other if such oneness compromises… HIM.

But if HIM, how much more us?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

If we love Him we keep His commandments, right?

Amen. However, Jesus boiled it all down to two primary commandments.

1.) Love God with all one’s heart, mind, soul, and strength.
2.) Demonstrate our love for God by loving our neighbor as ourselves.

I’d like to draw our attention these texts:

Matthew 22:37-40
King James Version (KJV)
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Romans 13:9
For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Galatians 5:14
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Romans 13:9 says it very eloquently. It mentions several of the Ten Commandments and then states, “and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.”

True, Christ-like love will automatically cause no harm to another. It will not kill, commit adultery, steal, bear false witness, or covet. Therefore, if we simply love one another as ourselves, we will automatically fulfill the whole of law.

The corollary being that those who do not keep the Lord's commandments prove that they do not love Him as they say. Again we are drawn back to lists. What are the commandments of the Lord Jesus? How do we keep them properly? What if we don't agree? Can we be in sincere disagreement with one another without being in trouble with the Savior?

I believe the commandments of Christ are simply:

1.) Love God with all one’s heart, mind, soul, and strength.
2.) Demonstrate our love for God by loving our neighbor as ourselves.

Paul asked the Galatians, "Am I now become your enemy because I tell you the truth"?

He called them foolish, said they were bewitched, said they had fallen from grace, and even desired that the Judaizers who had corrupted them would be castrated.

Are these words "loving" or "wholesome"?

Sometimes, the greatest words of love hurt us the most. We need censure, we need reproof and rebuke, we need verbal chastisement, we need to be upbraided.

Yes, love is often tough. I’m not talking about a frilly emotional love. I’m talking about Christ-like love.

[Carl]

It is easier to come up with lists rather than allow Christ to be formed in us. There are a lot of principles in the bible that have become absolutes to measure one another by. However having observed some churches that have done away with the "lists" I shudder at what they have become and wonder where it will lead them.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Carl

It is easier to come up with lists rather than allow Christ to be formed in us. There are a lot of principles in the bible that have become absolutes to measure one another by. However having observed some churches that have done away with the "lists" I shudder at what they have become and wonder where it will lead them.

When they abandon lists and fall into grave error, it shows the danger of legalism. They never spiritually matured.

[Michael The Disciple]

My child, I will tell you why you are all so divided. It is your religions. They are not of me. Each of you has a list. A list of do’s and don’ts. And each of you think that I authored your respective lists. Baptists have their list, Catholics have their lists, Pentecostals have their lists, Methodists have their lists, Lutherans have their lists, Charismatics have their lists, Messianics have their lists, Episcopals have their lists… each list is different. I’m not a God of confusion.

So none of those "lists" matter. I agree. However the commandments and instructions of Christ given through his apostles are very critical to the saints.

Jesus himself is identified with them.

14:12 Here is the patience of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.” Rev. 14:12

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

So none of those "lists" matter. I agree. However the commandments and instructions of Christ given through his apostles are very critical to the saints.

Jesus himself is identified with them.

14:12 Here is the patience of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.” Rev. 14:12

And... as it is written,

Romans 13:9
For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Keep it simple. Legalism loves complexities. The measure of an illuminated spirituality isn't in it's complexity. It's in it's simplicity.

When the books are opened and the believer is judged. He or she will not be judged on their hair, clothing, dress codes, religious dogmas, or legalisms... their every thought, word, and deed will be judged as to if it were a demonstration of love. Were they demonstrating the love of God by loving others?

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Aquila

And... as it is written,

Romans 13:9
For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Keep it simple. Legalism loves complexities. The measure of an illuminated spirituality isn't in it's complexity. It's in it's simplicity.

When the books are opened and the believer is judged. He or she will not be judged on their hair, clothing, dress codes, religious dogmas, or legalisms... their every thought, word, and deed will be judged as to if it were a demonstration of love. Were they demonstrating the love of God by loving others?

According to Matt. 25, we will be judged primarily on how we treated the less fortunate!! That seems to be the only judgment that effects one's punishment.