Harold Hoffman attacks Jim Kilgore

[Charnock]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

What Hoffman said in this video is similar to what many other preachers do when they call out people from the pulpit. I don't like it.

This will suffice.

Thanks.

[Charnock]

This "pile on" behavior is very typical of abusive systems.

Those connected with the group pile on anyone who has the temerity to cry when kicked, beaten and bloodied.

In their minds, the victim needs to grow up, take it like a man, and stop whining.

[crakjak]

It wasn't a mistake, the preacher meant what he said, and he believes what he says!!

Fine, alot of folks simply believe he is wrong, and that what he said was in extremely bad taste.

I'm sure JK had a lot of misgivings about the direction of LT, however, he never rejected his son, and I don't believe for a minute he felt like was presented in this video.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Charnock

This will suffice.

Thanks.

Yes, her comment that she "doesn't like it" will suffice, but my comment stating that it was in "terrible taste" (re: the N word) does not suffice. I think YOUR agenda is showing.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Charnock

This is a defense.

No, it's related to the fact that I always look at both sides of an issue. Two wrongs never make a right. The response to wrong has to be done in a way that maintains integrity and stays above the fray.

It's also an attack on the person who posted this thread, accompanied by your patented and condescending eye roll.

It was the coffee cup that was dubbed condescending.

HH's comments were not "mistakes" in the sense that he accidentally, and without thought, slipped.

I didn't say they were accidental. Sometimes people say things on purpose that they regret later because they don't think through the consequences. The fact that he parsed it doesn't mean he didn't regret it later--but obviously that's a hypothetical and I have no way of knowing if he regrets anything.

He stated that he knew those comments were being taped, and didn't care.

That's something far more insidious than "poor taste."

Then why did you call it "poor taste" at the very least? Why is your summation fine but my almost exact same summation bad?

This is what you do, Bratti. You immediately attack the poster rather than the content and in such a way as to make yourself appear above the conversation.

It's an old schtick.

Actually, I don't. I do call a spade a spade and if you respond to wrong with wrong, I will call you out on it. You and others don't like that because you want it to be one sided. You want to rake people over the coals for their attitudes, lack of self-control, meanness, vindictiveness, etc., WHILE you are being mean, vindictive and having an attitude. I have a lot of respect for people who address issues respectfully. If I had the time (which I don't), I could go back and find multiple threads where I have participated in discussing serious issues with church leadership, organizations, etc., without attacking the poster for bringing it up. I don't have a problem with issues being raised and I don't have a problem with this thread being posted. Never have. If I did, I wouldn't participate in this forum, and I wouldn't comment on similar threads on Facebook. I'm not scared of issues.

I don't feel respect for people who address issues without integrity and self-control, e.g., I won't give your complaints any weight. If someone screams at me in anger and I scream right back, I'm just as wrong. If someone cusses me and I cuss back at them, I'm just as guilty. Etc. If you're going to call out people on their mess, you'd better be squeaky clean, or you're no better than them. IMO, the reason you feel comfortable being disrespectful and rude is because you have devalued certain groups of people (UPCers/conservative Apostolics) and given yourself permission to do so. Giving yourself permission to be ugly and rude because you think negatively about someone's values or belief system doesn't mean it's okay in God's eyes.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Charnock

This "pile on" behavior is very typical of abusive systems.

Those connected with the group pile on anyone who has the temerity to cry when kicked, beaten and bloodied.

In their minds, the victim needs to grow up, take it like a man, and stop whining.

Utter nonsense. No one on this thread has indicated that the "victim" (Bro. Kilgore's son?) should "grow up, take it like a man...." I certainly don't feel that way about anyone offended by the N-word reference.

Are you just mad because I don't like that the videos were posted? It's the wrong way to handle offenses, and that's all there is to that. I don't care about "protecting" Bro. Hoffman or anyone else in the UPC or church world. I do care about the biblical manner of resolving offenses, and I would hope that you care about that, too. I also care about protecting the reputation of the church as a whole, and IMO, that is why scripture basically tells us not to take church issues to the secular world for judgment.

Taking a matter public is actually UNbiblical, aka, disobedient to the Word of God. Taking a matter before the "whole church" is biblical, but only after a couple of other methods are used. THAT is why I object to these expose' style videos being posted, after the manner of some news rag that's out to air everyone's dirty laundry. I AM interested in church discipline and leaders who get out of line being corrected.

So what places you or any other Christian above the biblical protocol for resolving offenses?

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

It was the coffee cup that was dubbed condescending.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Charnock

Now, all of this was prefaced with the remark that Life Tabernacle is "gone" and that it was the largest foreign missions donor before departing.

The real issue here is anger. Anger because the money flow into FM slowed.

At the very least he acted in poor taste. There was no love in that message.

The bold part is a massive leap. I re-watched the clip with the volume up full blast and still didn't make out everything. As I heard, there was one passing reference to foreign missions and that's it.

HH said Jimbo was an embarrassment, but doesn't say why. He follows that with telling the people there that they need to stop being embarrassed by "this."

Unless you've watched or heard the entire message, you can't make the claim there was no love in the message. This 80 second clip doesn't show enough to make that claim.

As far as HH faking emotion, as a couple here have claimed...how do you know? You have no idea.

[Reader]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Yes, her comment that she "doesn't like it" will suffice, but my comment stating that it was in "terrible taste" (re: the N word) does not suffice. I think YOUR agenda is showing.

[Charnock]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

No, it's related to the fact that I always look at both sides of an issue. Two wrongs never make a right. The response to wrong has to be done in a way that maintains integrity and stays above the fray.

Um, BWAHAHA!

Your immediate and continued response has been to show way more disdain for the person who posted this thread than the racist and cruel remarks of HH.